I got this comment from Pearls yesterday and have been stewing on it since them. Didn't come to any real amazing answers since then.
If you missed the background here is what you need to get up to speed.
Pearls says, Its the fact that people will do anything to survive that would keep me from allowing someone to cross my land. I don't want them telling someone else how they traveled. I don't want to become accustomed to "outsiders" so close on my land. I done want someone to see our diggs, preps, outside buildings, gardens, livestock or my family.
I am very familiar with the original guys post on western OKC/OK as well as the land he was describing and have been following the post afterwords with interest.
Cutting a fence will get you shot - I find a lock that isn't mine on my chain....well, the chain will be cut off - a new one put in its place and a close watching of the gate will ensue.
TOR is right - people will do what it takes to survive - keeping my land off limits is just one step in making sure that is exactly what happens to my fam...
A trespasser (which is what they are) may have absolutely no intent on harming me or my family, but I have no way of knowing that and I am not willing to take that chance that they do want to do us harm....
I realize that the original poster was talking about bugging out and I am coming from a "set" position, but both sides need to be evaluated before you take any action - just looking at it from someone wanting to pass and ignoring the landowner is dangerous.
TOR replies:
Pearls, Great comment. Interesting perspective and points. I can definitely see where you are coming from. These sort of ethical discussions to not lead themselves to clear cut moral clarity but I believe the process of thinking through them has some value. I certainly agree that looking at it solely from the side of the traveler would not be a realistic perspective.
My one real question is... Would you would rather have a desperate person (or group) who went through the pasture then bypassed the blocked bridge/ whatever and is driving away or a desperate person (or group) stewing knowing you are the person preventing them from getting home?
Consider the risks of NOT allowing simple passage as well as the risks of allowing it.
As for my other thoughts. I think it depends a lot on the size of your land and its potential as an alternate route. If you live near a choke point (bridge, highway intersection, pass, etc) and your land backs up to BLM/USFS/etc land with viable alternate routes this is probably a significant issue to think about. If you live towards the end of a dirt road and are surrounded by other private land owners with routes to nowhere then it is a minimal concern.
While the criteria for lethal force varies significantly from state to state I can't see anyplace possible being cool with drilling some guy in the face with an '06 from 300 yards because he gets near a fence with a pair of wire cutters. In all but a genuine full on TEOTWAWKI shooting someone simply because they arguably attempt to cut a fence is going to get you at least a decade in a small cement room with a large woman (who probably likes women) named 'Spike'. And that is assuming you win the gunfight. Crazy things happen when people get in gun fights and a sure thing can quickly turn into a very bad situation.
I did come up with one potential easy get out of this ethical conundrum option for the land owner. As a 'traveler' would be wise to at least attempt to gain permission instead of trespassing a land owner could be well advised to simply do their homework and know another way to the likely alternate route (aside from across their land). Lets say people might want to cross your pasture to get to a gravel road which leads to unimproved road 231 that will get them around the bridge and home. The path of least resistance might be suggesting going back one mile to Johnson road where you will take the third left, travel one half mile and then take the first right which T's into unimproved road 231.
It is probably worth considering other potential variables into the equation such as:
-What sort of event is this? Blackout/ hurricane/ earthquake/ riot/ etc or a genuine TEOTWAWKI. This will factor heavily into what you are capable of doing to protect your property without visiting 'Spike'. It will also factor into the desperation and potential reactions of travelers/ possible trespassers.
-Are you willing to kill someone because they want to cross your land? It is easy to think about a couple meth maggots who cut your fence but what about a Mom with two kids who really wants to get home and will not leave the front gate?
-What is your real ability to stop potential trespassers. Just as it is easy to see the moral clarity of our position it is easy to see how our plan will work as we intend it to. Assuming an armed threat or even shooting someone will end the matter is very idealistic.
As a final thought I do not have any clear or concise answers to these questions. Real world ethics questions are difficult because they live in complex shades of grey. It is interesting that people almost universally see the moral argument for THEIR perspective while somehow ignoring that any moral argument could exist on the other side.
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10 comments:
Most thugs, thieves, mass murderers, and low-lifes come without warning labels.
The party that says they want to transit - might just want a look-see at someone prepared to defend - what? Must be something interesting or valuable!
Plus, the sight of any firearms, after the balloon goes up, might be enough for an amoral "that looks better than mine, I bet I can get it!" opportunist to take action.
As for proving rights to fire on someone damaging property, "When seconds count, the police are just minutes away." Unless the zombies broke out, and all the police are going to be busy for a few days.
Strangers will need to be aware when they are in unwelcome territory - and behave accordingly to survive.
I was warned that Jackson County, TN, was one such area about nine years ago. "If you get lost, get back to town and call. Do *not* ask the neighbors for directions. They shoot." My visit went smoothly, but my friends were serious.
That kind of distrust and isolation can return, big time, in no time, once people start to realize that the prepping they have done will be needed to survive, and that they are the only reason others don't take it.
Which, I guess, sort of argues for not bugging out. That a better choice is to develop a prepared community to cross-support each other - and to know who belongs and who is suspect until proven innocent.
I love ethical dilemmas. I love rolling what-if's and all sorts of "gray area" thoughts around in my head.
There's no real answer to any of this since we are all living relatively secure lives and don't yet know lies beneath our civilized veneer. I know that I would and could kill to protect my children, but in what other circumstances would I willingly take a life? I don't know.
Another way to think this through is to research other modern day civilizations whose foundations have, more or less, disintegrated, such as Argentina.
On that note...gotta do laundry. Hubby is out of clean jeans, and I would like his civilized veneer remain so. :o)
Lisa
She was pretty clear when she said:
"Cutting a fence will get you shot - I find a lock that isn't mine on my chain....well, the chain will be cut off - a new one put in its place and a close watching of the gate will ensue."
Someone looking for an alternate route likely wouldn't be carrying bolt cutters. They're lost, and bolt cutters are heavy. No one wants to carry extra weight. As for the chain and lock that doesn't belong, that's downright property theft. They need to learn the permanent way that it isn't going happen.
Why not read what she said, and consider it for what it is? Twisting it to fit your own argument shows a lack of comprehension. She made herself clear.
-Puck
Brad K, You are right that a party could in theory "shoot, shovel and shut up". Maybe they would get away with it and maybe not.
Being where you plan to shelter in place is a nice idea but not totally practical. Every need to go to the big town to go shopping or do business? Visit family?
You are right that mistrust and isolation could quickly return in a GENUINE TEOTWAWKI. In a lot of ways thinking "I can do whatever I want then" is an excuse to not think about how you would act if things were completely screwed but the law was still around (hurricanes, Katrina, natural disasters, riots, etc).
The Survival Mom, Dilemmas are certainly interesting. I think we often fail to realize that complete disorder and collapse often happens in the presence of a legal system where we will be held accountable for our actions.
Been rolling it around in my head too - wondering if I was too harsh or what alternatives there are....
No - I wasnt too harsh ;)
Alternatives - the only thing I can think of is TO KNOW YOUR ROUTE - if there is a structure on the land - house, barn, trailer - AVOID THAT LAND - PERIOD!!
Also - honestly, I will shoot a man before I shoot a chick with kids - honestly.... So, I would think if you want safe passage, the jumping up an down and calling attention to yourself FROM THE OTHER SIDE OF THE GATE with everyone visible, not carrying, with hands up might be your best chance.
In that situation, it all depends on how well fortified our position is - if friends have arrived, a mom and kids are more likely to be allowed to cross - if they have not, then a Go and God Bless with some other directions will probably be our recourse.
Also - there is a bridge bout 2 miles (or less) from our property that would most likely be impassable due to some freak natural disaster around the time to bug out - it would keep people away from a good group of us peoples and hopefully minimize those that would come across us....
I state this for 2 reasons - when you plan your bugout route, look at it from people who live there's point of view - it wouldnt surprise me if there are a bunch of natural disasters that affect bridges - be prepared to get across on foot or have another route.
Second, if someone did "find" us, I am going to assume they arent Boy Scouts....
Also - have more than 1 way to get where you are going - the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line, but everyone is going to be trying that....maybe heading south east in order to loop around and head north might be the best option....think outside the box - that box is going to be packed with panicking people...
TOR - great topic - I have been thinking bout this for days!
Pearls
Pearls, To be honest the main reason I wrote about this is because I just couldn't get it out of my head.
I think one consideration when it comes to purchasing land (albeit a minor one) is getting a place away from a potential flow of refugees and choke points/ alternate routes around them.
As for alternatives I think it is a very complicated situation with almost endless potential variables.
Thanks.
TOR
For what it’s worth, I just reposted some PRIVATE PROPERTY and NO TRESSPASSING signs on my property. One is at the rear on a tree where a path separates our property from the orchard and is used by their farm equipment. One is up front, next to my driveway. Another is on the doors to my detached garage/shed. The last one is on a tree next to the garage, facing the rear of the property. People coming from front or back have 2 warnings and anyone coming from properties on either side should at least see the signs near the garage.
I was informed by police years ago after some vandalism of my fruit trees that, even though common sense dictates that you are on someone else’s property, you have to actually post signs to that effect. Perhaps WTSHTF, having the proper signage along with the demeanor of the intruder might justify lethal force.
Samuel Adams, Good call. Clear posting definitely does not hurt. As for justification of lethal force WSHTF that is an interesting topic I have got a post in mind about.
I was thinking today about signage. How some SF books point out that to defend an invaded space - the first thing you do is to remove direction and location signs. This immediately separates out the locals from the passers-through. Mailbox names and numbers, street and road signs. Bury them - don't get caught with them on hand, but removing location signs should be a first reaction.
And that means, when bugging out, you should be ready to find your way after the signs and mile markers and such have been removed - or swapped around.
How is that for "know your route before the balloon goes up!"?
Brad K., Never heard that but it makes a whole lot of sense. A good map at a decent scale (think county or smaller), a compass and an eye on the mileage will go a long way to figuring out what is where. I will have to keep that in mind.
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