I need some advice from you and the community.
I've been having some trouble (In the same way Sisyphus had some
difficulty) trying to get my girlfriend to understand the preparedness
mentality. We may be moving in together soon and it's an issue. I can
live with her not joining in, but I can't even get her to Understand.
She's a highly educated and intelligent woman. She's an Engineer who
works with local government contracts, but she just can't see it.
I tried explaining that guns in the hands of the victims could have
turned the tide in many mass-shootings.
I tried to explain that the Katrina victims who starved could have
laid in supplies to get through.
And I then had to try to explain how I'm not "Blaming the victims"
when I talk about real-world situations that could have been averted.
She talked about people vainly waiting for the government to help them
in a crisis like somehow that would change. If I suggest that sane
people shouldn't rely on outside help, I'm suddenly an asshole for
blaming the victims. She hates the idea of me having guns in our home.
I don't know if there is anything I can say that can change her
opinions. She was horribly assaulted a few years back and Still
resists the idea that you shouldn't rely on strangers (government
employees) coming to the rescue. I'm at a loss. I'm hoping someone has
suggestions on how to present preparedness to her.
Regards,
Michael
TOR here: I got this email and really wanted to respond to it as quickly as possible. I may not be able to solve anything but can at least share my thoughts on the matter and a bit of experience from preparing while in a relationship. First to the gun thing.
Does she have a basic understanding of how guns work? Sometimes people who have only heard about them from the liberal media and such have a view where guns are about equal to a dozen rusty razor blades welded together at weird angles covered in AIDS and stored on the floor in the hallway. I know many women don't like their residence looking like the Alamo or a COP with random loaded guns all over the place. Maybe keeping guns in the safe/ locking steel cabinet or physically on your person would help.
Some people particularly women have a real thing about not wanting guns around. I have an aunt whose husband kept his Glock with my Grandparents for probably 5 years. Eventually he got a gun safe and it moved to their place. All I can say is that if the is absolutely not willing to work with you and come to an agreement (guns in safe or whatever) then you have to choose. If I was in that situation I would tell a chick who was unwilling to work with me on that to take a hike.
I would not worry so much about her accepting the 'mentality'. I would worry about her ACTIONS and HOW THEY AFFECT YOUR PREPARADNESS. For perspective my wife does not share a lot of my opinions on life and preparadness but we keep plenty of food around and put money towards preps and precious metals every month.
Spouses generally fall into 4 rough groups when it comes to this.
The first group is whole hog into it. Their idea of an awesome weekend is going to shoot an animal, cooking it over a fire and then sleeping in an improvised shelter with just their BOB's to comfort them. Few spouses fall into this group.
The second group is into some aspects of preparadness but not others. Maybe they hate to shoot/hunt/ whatnot but loves to cook from staples or sew or hike or camp. Wifey falls loosely into this group.
The third group wants nothing to do with preparadness at all but within certain circumstances is open to you pursueing it. This isn't ideal but you can work with it.
The fourth group wants nothing to do with preparadness and doesn't want you to either. This often leads to guys sneeking around and stashing preps in weird places, etc. [Just the same way as if you were sneeking around with Suzzie Rotten Crotch or Jim Gonaherpisiphilades] this will not end well. I personally consider a spouse absolutely refusing to 'let' you participate in something which is important to you a serious lack of respect and that would probably be a deal maker for me.
Again back to perspective and such. I assume there is some reason you love this gal. Maybe she has a short skirt and a long jacket or whatever. Trying to convert her in a modest way may be possible. Focusing on realistic and likely situations 'remember when the power went out last winter, wouldn't it be nice to have some food and a kerosene heater', etc is probably a reasonable course of action.
I know lots of couples who don't totally see eye to eye on everything but have plenty of stuff in common and a generally good relationship. Coming to reasonable agreements when it comes to space, finances (if you share them) and such is probably more important than 'perspective'.
Does anyone else have thoughts on this?
Posts
25 comments:
Find some light survival fiction.
My wife always kind of 'tolerated' my prepping, which I kept small just to keep issues from arising.
One day, I left a browser window open on the laptop of a zombie story I was reading on ZombieSquad (www.zombiehunters.org; a preparedness forum that uses zombies as an analogy for any kind of disaster). My wife started reading it and is now into pretty much ever aspect of preps, except for the guns. Our food storage has gone from a couple of weeks to 60 days. She has had me help her start a garden in the backyard. She even suggested that we put together a little get home bag/EDC for our toddler for when she goes to her grandparents' house.
My wife wasn't into the preparing thing until we had an ice storm that knocked out the power for almost a week. I started pulling out stuff I had stored and we had heat, light, food, and water for us and her sister and her sister's kids. Before this I was sort of "strange" because I worried about such things. After this I was a lot smarter than anyone figured. Before she tended to wait 'til things ran out to replenish and now we ALWAYS have a backup for anything we use. She is 100% into being prepared and askes me from time to time how much food or water or ammo we have and do we need to get more. We have food to survive and guns and ammo to keep it.
One item I'd use on a female as described in this letter is turning "classic liberal tactics" on her. Consider it a last ditch effort, because if it doesn't work and they don't soften, it can be a relationship ender [of course I wouldn't want to remain in a relationship with someone of the victim mentality].
Some tag lines:
"Wow... i thought you were open-minded. I didn't realize you'd be so *close minded* about mine and your personal safety."
-after this one, be prepared for possible rebuttals such as "You are the close minded-one!" and related accusations and insist on keeping it on their mindset. Changing the topic is a classic tactic, be ready to call them on it.
"Should we remove our seatbelts from the car? Disable the airbags? throw out our fire extinguishers and smoke detectors? By having guns and some basic supplies I am only ensuring we have a safeguard. The gov't mandates most of the above, however they also advocate what I want to do thru homeland security and the red cross."
If she still insists that emergencies are unlikely to come up where you will need guns and food, insist that the Titanic was unsinkable, and Chamberlain achieved "peace in our time", and any other number of historical references of major follies where hundreds [or hundreds of thousands] of lives were lost because people were not prepared.
Good luck, and don't be afraid to walk away from a relationship that is incompatible.
CB, Interesting idea. Glad it worked out for you.
12:48, I think that pattern is pretty typical.
Bro Brandon B, My one concern about that plan is that it seems more confrontational than cooperative. Often that sort of thing will side track the whole discussion (and by default the topic) into a non positive direction.
From the female point of view
If the letter writer is not a stupid dweeb (who'd she need to kick to the curb anyway and find somebody nearer her own level), it's not about convincing her to adopt his thing...It's about convincing her that he has a right to his thing. He needs to have enough space in his life to have his own interests, whether they be guns, survival crap, or what have you.
I don't particularly like guns, but it can be useful having someone around who knows how to use one--if they're not a stupid dweeb, they are trained and safe and make sure everybody else in the household is safe too.
I don't tolerate stupid men too well, but I've put up with guns, sometimes lots of guns, if that's his thing. My ex husband spent more money on guns than I care to think about.
The deal is he didn't spend money we needed for the household, or deprived me of money I wanted for my thing--he spent money he worked hard for and earned. He took care of his family, made sure we were safe and I could shoot one of things if needed, so how could I begrudge him his oversupply of damn guns?
If the guy's girlfriend won't indulge him enough to give him the space to do his own thing--(hopefully he would do the same for her)--he might need to find someone else who would.
Wildflower, You make a very compelling point about respect, space and balance.
Cooperation, not confrontation, is definitely the way to go.
Btw, it might be helpful for the writer to tell us how old he and his girlfriend are, because IMHO men and women relate to each other differently at different stages in their lives.
Lacking that specific knowledge, I have learned (the hard way) that in all areas of life, not just self-sufficiency/preparedness, it is more productive to approach your better half with the goal of finding common ground rather than trying to win a debate. Because if you win the battle, you will still lose the war eventually.
The only way to win these skirmishes is to not fight. It sounds like you and your significant other have different political philosophies, and that won't change overnight, if ever. And that's just fine - use that to find a middle ground. Instead of trying to convince your girlfriend of your reasoning, find specific preparations that she might want to make because they fit her reasoning. Think "diplomacy".
Food might be a good place to start. For example: food storage. Keeping more food staples on hand is "green". It reduces the number of trips you have to make to the grocery store, and if you can buy in bulk sizes, it reduces packaging.
Another food example: learning to garden. Again, it is "green". Also, fresh vegetables taste way better than store-bought. The two of you can experiment with growing organically, which your girlfriend may enjoy. It's actually a very fun activity for couples if you get into it.
Yet another food example: making bread. It is more cost-effective than buying at the store, a plus in these economic times. And again, it tastes better than store-bought (once you figure out what you're doing). It also provides great opportunities for you to make a romantic gesture - I have yet to meet a woman who doesn't melt when her man surprises her with a thoughtful homemade dinner, and nothing displays thought and advance planning like fresh-baked bread.
You see where I'm going here. Be creative. Find areas of agreement and work outward, don't start with disagreements and try to work inward. And leave the really touchy subjects (like guns in your case) for a later date, after the two of you have some well-established common ground on a few matters of preparedness/self-sufficiency. Again, think "diplomacy" - whatever your feelings on China, our current relations with them began with ping pong matches, not free trade agreements.
Best of luck to you.
These sound like some significant differences. If there are a few other areas of major disagreement, not associated with the need to be prepared, get a new girlfriend.
Ryan: As always, thanks for the help. She knows a bit about guns. Her parents have been trying to get her to get one since she was attacked. (ironically, her mother will most likely be a shooting-buddy in the future.) The compromise is no loaded or loose guns. They must be unloaded and locked up. I can deal with this.
She falls into the last catagory in the sense that she sees the community as a bunch of ultra-right-wing anarchists or something.
CB: That is an idea I've been toying with. Any other suggestions on light survival fiction? Or even non-fiction for that matter? Our elevation and distance from the oceans means I can't scare her with Katrina/Tsunami stories.
12:48: She is the wait till it runs out sort. We got into a debate at the store last week over paper towels. I wanted to buy bulk (cheaper too, not just the prep thing) and she thought it was excessive. I go around it by just buying the bulk when I see it on sale and storing it in my half of the storage closet.
Brandon: Arguing with a woman and using snappy one-liners is counter-productive even if they are %100 true. I've tried it, I just get called an asshole. We are very compatible in many ways. I would honestly give up the security of serious prepping for this woman if it came to it. Without her, there is a lot less motivation to give a shit about what happens in the future.
Wild: I'm not trying to get her to adopt the mentality. I just don't want to get into any more debates over wasting space with 'unnecessary' stores of goods.
I will use your idea and work the "this is my hobby" aspect. I think she might just give me the half-amused-eye-roll and let it go.
Just wanted to thank everyone, I think it will help. The main point I got is not to try to discus the merits/failings of prepping so much as make it an issue of "This is what I like to do, please respect it."
That alone could end the whole issue.
I played the healthier, cheaper, outdoorsy camping card that eventually led to shooting and so far so good!
the trick is like any sales job find that common ground and that thing that makes them tick and don't abuse it but play to it when needed...
Perhaps some TV fiction might be away to go as well. The Colony is a show that may not cover every aspect of a TSHTF (it definitely is not covering the guns), but provide a scenario that could happen, a group of people working together for a common goal (survival), and basic needs (food, water, security) that need to be met.
Consider I'm a women who until a couple months ago fell in to the last category and am now somewhere in the 2nd(ish) I can say that there probably isn't a single thing you can say that will 'convince' her what you're doing is right. I was already Chad and The Ryan's for YEARS and didn't give things they told me a second thought.
Or should I saw, I didn't listen until like 12:48's wife, we had a series of nasty weather and any sort of basic needs things shut down. No groceries to the stores, no garbage pick-up, etc. Luckily we had power and water, but that was about it. After that, all the things the Ryan's had been telling me for a decade clicked into place and I did a fairly serious 180.
You can pimp it as a hobby, but other then that, I don't think she's going to think you're any less neurotic unless she has her own change of heart.
It seems like the self-defense deal is what she has a problem with.
Start slow, and work your way up the ladder. Have her go to one of the NRA-sponsored, "Refuse To Be A Victim" classes. It is all education, no hands-on.
Next, enroll her in a pepper spray/stun gun class. They usually have a good deal of the educational stuff, plus you're learning some skills.
Finally, enroll her in a handgun course - the NRA "First Steps" class, or something similar.
Education fixes most stereotypes and preconceived notions.
All else fails, dump her. Really. How could you live with yourself if your home were broken into and she was raped and/or murdered, and you could do nothing because didn't like guns? Nip it in the bud, now, if she keeps fighting you.
Dump her. It will never work out.
RUN (don't walk) away from this woman. You will not convince her no matter what you try and she will make your life hell until you get rid of her. She's not into you, she's into what you can do for her. Keeping company with this woman is a dead end.
YeOldFurt
Marry her, then move in.
But then, if you don't agree on the most fundamental things about what life is about, and what it means to be you, and what it means to be her, why are you seeing each other?
Core beliefs, if they are true, should never be compromised, as the truth should never be compromised. Preparedness is your way of living the truth. Hers, unfortunately, is denial. The two are incompatible.
"The compromise is no loaded or loose guns. They must be unloaded and locked up. I can deal with this."
That kind of defeats the purpose for having a gun for self-defense, right?
If you are not at home, they should be locked up to prevent against unauthorized use, but if you are home and you do need it.... how much good is it locked up and unloaded?
***
"She falls into the last catagory in the sense that she sees the community as a bunch of ultra-right-wing anarchists or something."
Or maybe you are a crazy leftist who is rebelling against the capitalistic consumer culture and would rather be self-sufficient than promote global trade which causes inequality.... blah blah.
I tried. But even the government recommends having an emergency radio, extra drinkable water, etc. for an emergency.
***
I don't know if you live in a house, apartment, acreage or whatever.
I have a "man-room". Inside the man room I keep all my "man stuff." The xbox and the guns (except the nightstand ones) are kept in the man-room.
If you live in an apartment, you could get a storage rental (I think they are like $30 a month here) to stockpile rice and toilet paper.
***
But really.... keep everything in balance and perspective.
Life is about more than rice and beans. Maybe join a shooting sport, I do IPSC/USPSA. It will improve your skills and make her realize that there ARE sporting uses. There are also women at my club who compete, and while a few of the people there look like scary biker dudes (although they are genuinely decent chaps), most are just average joes and janes.
Highly recommend learning to hunt if you can. The knee-jerk reaction is "cruelty to animals!" but in reality, all the hunters I know are conservationist/ecologist/nature lovers.... For one, the food is healthy, no hormones or antibiotics, for two, it's much more humane and natural than the mass production animal farms that churn out McBurgers, and for three, when done legally and ethically it will make you care more about conservation. If your g/f isn't a vegetarian, you should make her feel guilty every time she eats factory meat from the grocery store until she lets you go hunting.
***
And gardening.... well that's just totally freaking Zen and nature-loving and stuff.
Start a tea and mint garden. Tea is all sensitive and stuff.... and makes you seem more emotional. It's also healthy and even has mild medicinal uses if you must have a ZPAW justification for it. It also just makes you feel good.
I will stop rambling now.
But you should be allowed to have at least one defensive firearm, unless you don't want to.
And it should be locked up when you are NOT home, unless you have a CCW permit where it can go with you.
***
Lastly, I don't know how many guns you have. If you owe money on cars, student loans, or you never take your girlfriend on dates because you are broke, stop buying guns.
Otherwise, it's your hobby.
***
The only reason we survived an earthquake, a mudslide, a hurricane, 2 blizzards that kept kids out of school for 20 & 30 days respectively, and 2 ice storms, was because my husband was a prepper long, long before it was called that(he was Mormon). I prepped because it WAS easier.
Easier not to jump in the car on a weekly basis to go get food. Easier to have stuff on hand for day to day living. Easier to have unexpected guests show up and be able to pull something out to feed them. Easier not to have to get the toddlers ready to go with diaperbags, food, strollers and such, to go get milk...or basil...or more diapers (I used cloth - if I needed more, I did a load of laundry).
Having the pantry well-stocked means more time to do the things you want.
Try leaving a copy of YOUR MONEY OR YOUR LIFE by Joe Dominguez & Vicki Robin around.
The chapter on being organized to save TIME for the fun stuff is awesome...and taught me a lot about being PREPARED.
Start with the official FEMA preparedness guide (http://www.fema.gov/areyouready/), as well as anything that is put out by your local fire department or whatever. For example, if you live in a hurricane zone, the local emergency services may have suggestions for what to have on hand; ditto for earthquake or tornado prone regions.
This is stuff that's published by the authorities and honestly the lists are usually pretty good for covering the basics. Most people get a warm fuzzy when they use a Government Sanctioned checklist so its a safe place to start.
Don't push the gun thing. My wife decided that she was tired of just carrying bear spray (we live in AK) and realized that the bear spray would wipe her out too if she used it in the house. She decided that she was tired of being scared of guns and took a women's only handgun class and had a good time.
If she decides she wants to go shooting, pay the money for a good class with a professional that has a good reputation for teaching first time shooters (and women). You'll pay a few hundred bucks but its well worth it.
If she doesn't decide that she wants to go shooting, that's ok too. If you're going to have guns in the house, I think its wise to go over the Four Rules and show her how to clear the weapon, but don't push anything more than that. Be an exemplar for safe weapons storage and handling. Invite her to come with you when you go to the range but don't be overbearing or obnoxious about it.
"Hey love, I'm going to the range -- want to come? No? Ok. I'll be back in a few hours. Want me to grab anything from the grocery store on my way home?" Should work fine.
Cheers,
Chris
http://armaborealis.blogspot.com/
Survival and preps is at the very least a hobby (much more if things go wrong).
If a spouse or partner is not able to allow you the space for 'your' hobby you really need to give things some more thought. IMO.
michael, are you moving into "her" place? is she moving into yours, or are both of you going to spend money to create an "ours"? if you would move in together anyway why isn't the "M" word being discussed? (you love her, you get along with her family, unless there is some other impediment you should marry her)
it would be better to maintain separate living quarters until you work this out, because you need to be prepared for her sake as well as yours. the only thing you should ever do behind her back is buy her gifts or zip her dress. (well there may be one other thing...) she was the victim of a trauma, but refusing to prepare, and now, risks catastrophe. there is also the question of your future children. do you want them to be raised fearful and helpless?
your half of the storage closet isn't enough room for preps anyhow. you need a good bookshelf. the knowlege and skills portion of survivalism is more essential than the "stuff". you need a "workshop" of your own also, because a "hobby" often involves working on stuff. (even if it's just a rolling tool box/workbench or the kitchen table)
one other thought. maybe you could get her involved in designing some aspect your prep gear, for example an "alternative power system"(maybe solar), or a HEPA air filter/blower system to keep the H1N1 out of your home. (of course if you're also an engineer you could design them for yourself and leave them someplace she would see)
"The compromise is no loaded or loose guns. They must be unloaded and locked up. I can deal with this.", wrote Michael.
http://waronyou.com/forums/index.php?topic=86.0
On January 6th, 2007 a double murder was committed in Knoxville that would make Dirty Harry throw up. It has many of the elements that the Duke not-a-rape story had. It has race, and class and gender, as well as rape -- but made more horrific by murder. A terrible injustice had been committed against innocent, helpless people at the hands of vicious thugs.
On that night, 21-year-old Channon Christian, and her boyfriend, 23-year-old Hugh Christopher Newsom were carjacked in Knoxville by three thugs. Their attackers were sadly not satisfied with the Toyota 4-Runner that they commandeered at gunpoint. They kidnapped the young couple and took them to the house where one of the perps lived. They were joined by a fourth man and a woman. They proceeded to commit the stomach-churning crimes.
All four men are charged with the anal rape of Christopher Newsom. They did so in the presence of Channon Christian. They then shot him to death, wrapped him in bedding, soaked him in gasoline and set him on fire. He was the lucky one.
Channon Christian was a senior at the University of Tennessee. According to the charges and a source close to the investigation, she was repeatedly gang raped by the four men -- vaginally, anally and orally. Before she died, her murderers poured a household cleaner down her throat, apparently in an effort to kill the DNA they had placed there. She was left to die, either from the bleeding caused “by the tearing,” or from asphyxiation. Knoxville officials won’t say.
It was several days before the police found her body. She had been stuffed into a garbage can in the house. According to a story posted on the WATE T.V. News web site, she was, “in five separate dark trash bags.”
end excerpt
I was a Corrections Officer for nine years. One evening in class at Sam Houston Dr George Beto said, For every one hunred felonies there are three arrests and one and one half convictions." I asked, "Sir. What is the point of having prisons?" He replied, "Prisons are magnificently irrelevant."
That means that for each violent predatory thug locked away in prison getting lots of rest, eating well and getting stronger lifting weights there are 50 on the street looking for fresh meat.
But she wants no loaded guns.
Get away from that girl before she gets you killed or worse.
Oh BTW Is the FBI racist?
FBI Crime reports alleges that 75% of violent crime in USA is commited by non-whites.
What's that?? She says it can't happen here?? Sho nuff
the man room (per Samuel)is an even better idea, than what i came up with. official femur or red cross publications (per Chris) are better than having nothing in your prepper library, but they include nothing about personal defense. they're good with the duct tape and plastic, but you'll suffocate before the authorities remember to sound the all clear. of course if you're holding your breath waiting for her to see the light, you may suffocate anyway.
The simple straightforward solution has been proposed: don't move in with her. There are plenty of good reasons not to live together outside of marriage, but this would be be a deal breaker if it cannot be positively resolved.
I realize I'm late to this party, but here's my two cents:
Grandpa (who was happily married for over 60 years when he died) told me that to have a good relationship you have to find the right person and you have to BE the right person. Assuming you're doing your best to keep this lady safe & sound whether or not the world goes crazy, it doesn't sound to me like you found the right person.
I also think she's counting on being able to change you, that you'll give up this survivalist gun-nut nonsense "if you really love her." Lots of women are stupid in thinking this is a good plan. But you can't change anyone but yourself -- and if you somehow manage to change someone else, the result sure as hell won't be a good or healthy relationship.
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