Occasionally I go out on a limb from my usual topics and today is going to be one of those days. It has been building in my head for awhile and I want to talk about marriage. I am going to try to do this in the most reasonable way possible without excessive criticism (a little funning is fair game) of anybodies position. So whatever your stance or lifestyle choices are please do not read into my words and get all offended. More likely than not what you read into this will have far more to do with you (and your feelings about your life) than it has to do with me.
I am going to start out by saying that marriage is a weird thing. It is weird because more so than government or money or anything like that it is an idea. What makes it so weird is that unlike government (which is what it is) or money it means very different things to different people. Unlike say a hundred dollar bill which, though of course it is relatively more valuable to an unemployed laborer than Bill Gates, we pretty much agree as the same value, the value peoples values of marriage vary widely. These views are affected by race/ ethnicity, culture, location, socioeconomic status and of course religion. Even the environment you grew up in can make a person who grew up 1 block away from another otherwise similar (on paper) person have vastly different viewpoints.
Some folks take marriage very seriously and others use it as something to get their 15 minutes of fame on who wants to marry a reasonably attractive nobody/ doctor/ midget stripper/ has been E list celebrity. Some people give it serious consideration and reject potential candidates who are close to, but not quite desirable and others seemingly put more energy into their choice of cars or haircuts. The bottom line is that a given marriage is worth precisely as much as the two people in it think it is worth.
Of far more significance (since say post WWII) a couple of big things have happened that really shook marriage. First the requisite education levels (I say education not schooling intentionally) required to support oneself, let alone a family have gone up drastically. An average 18 or 20 year old can’t support a spouse and a kid on the skill sets they have been able to acquire. This is quite a recent change as not so long ago getting married in their mid to late teens was quite common. This leads to even more prolonging of the awkward period called adolescence where our economic system incentivizes (and our social system reinforces) postponing coupling and the raising of children until which time you can acquire the skills to support them. This period just keeps getting longer as an internship/ apprenticeship, putting in substantial sweat equity starting at the bottom and learning or higher education is mandatory for having any shot at a decent economic future. I would wager this has in part lead to a corresponding increase in the average age people get married at.
Also since women have relatively recently entered the workforce their need to get married for economic survival has plummeted and with it the stigma of not getting married very early.
Folks are often socially active and dating for years before getting married these days. This means that lots of people are sexually active before getting married. (I see no point in getting bogged down on this though we will revisit it as it pertains to children and economics later).
Also women are now capable of physically having children far later and far more routinely than in the past. This is leading to some career women in their 30’s postponing marriage. That old biological clock has been slowed down.
I have personally found that men in their mid to late 20’s are in no hurry to get married even if they are in a stable relationship with a woman they plan to be with (and might even cohabitate with). Part of this could be that they are trying to get economically established and are not in a hurry to have kids. Maybe they want some time to pursue other goals. I currently have a theory that a lot of the reason these men are in no hurry is that they are not getting a wife in the most traditional stay at home sense. Since folks are getting married later girlfriends have jobs, etc which they typically do not, for numerous reasons, plan to leave any time soon. Since these women typically make less money than men going halfsies with no immediate plans for children might not look that appealing. Conversely for a lot of women then economics plus stability and womanly social pressures incentivize pushing marriage. However, Wifey points out that the social pressures and situations in larger urban areas are very different. She says in big cities often it is women who are holding off on getting hitched. I don’t know about that (she knows lots of these things) because I try not to talk to people from big cities.
Now we get to children and economics. The heritage foundation did a study on child poverty. Basically it says that if both parents have graduated high school and are married the odds a child will grow up in poverty are about nil. My initial thought was “turns out that if you graduate highschool, get married and then have children your odds of poverty are almost nonexistent. Go $&%(#ing figure”.
I took the time to read the study and it was interesting. They noted that most single mothers are not teenagers but in their mid to early 20’s and that typically they are in a relationship with the father. They do not “plan” to have a child but do stop using birth control which is essentially a plan to have a child as they are having sex. A friend of mine said “No girl over 20 gets pregnant by accident” and while I am sure once in a blue moon it does happen more likely it is intentional. Often the mother and the father are even living together.
The one thing that bothers me is that the way they get these statistics is IMO seriously misleading and designed to product shocking gotcha statistics. They only count the fathers income if he is married to the mother. Two parents living together raising a child will not have both of their incomes counted by this method of tabulation unless they are legally married, even if they are stable, the father contributes significantly to the household and has for years. Since the women in this group tend to have few marketable skills they don’t make a ton of money. The shocking statistics which come from this article are IMO seriously flawed and arguably intentionally misleading. They do note (I am sure accurately) that these relationships often break up and whatever informal support the father was giving may taper off. Despite my issue with the statistics this article is interesting, brings a lot of ideas and is well worth the read.
To me saying marriage is the magical solution to all of the problems of child poverty is seriously flawed. Why would we think the same couple in the same situation would act any differently if one Tuesday they got off work early and went to the courthouse to get married? Folks who barely know each other, jump into a relationship and then have a child, quite possibly without the father being on board beforehand, having given little consideration for how it will affect their future and if they really plan to be together forever are almost doomed from the start.
What we need to stabilize childrens lives is GOOD MARRIAGES and good stable long term relationships that act like good marriages. Parents, who sew some wild oats, party hard, hike the Appalachian train, try to make it on Broadway or whatever they need to do, then get their stuff together in terms of a career path, get to know each other, decide they plan to stay together forever AND THEN HAVE CHILDREN. What shocking, revolutionary ideas! When folks do these things out of order the results are almost always less than optimal. Sort of like baking a cake you have to do these things in the right order under the right conditions or the result is a big mess.
Values and good decision making are the answers. How to cultivate these is something I am far less than certain about. I think on an individual level it comes from parents and families. On a larger scale getting rid of disincentives (often women will qualify for welfare but not if the fathers income is counted) is a good start though that only works in certain socioeconomic groups.
13 comments:
I have never commented on a blog before, but you really hit the nail on the head here.
I am 23, own a home, am trying to be prepared mentally and physically for disasters, have a great long term GF (5 years), and am trying to get financially stable.
I came from a home that was stable where my parents made good choices and had good values. I think this shows even between my GF and I, I love her and want to spend the rest of my life with her but there has defiantly been times were there has been friction because of our differences in up bringing.
I regards to marriage I think you are spot on. I see a lot of people from my high school class getting married (and divorced!) and having unplanned pregnancies at such a young age and it seems silly a lot of the times. All I can think about is how expensive that wedding/child must have cost and how it probably could have been a down payment on a house.
Granted I have been very blessed as my parents have been in a position to help me out in a lot of ways not just financially. That along with a fair bit of luck and planning seems to really have made the difference so far in my life.
I just wanted to say thanks for the post, I have been an avid lurker for sometime now.
You made some good observations, and I'd like to add something to them. There was a recent study (don't recall details) that attempted to correlate the number of sex partners a woman has before marrying and the odds of her marriage lasting for some period of time (I believe they used 20 yrs as a benchmark, but I could be wrong), and the results are both amazing and intuitive on some level. Women whose first sexual experience was with their husbands had over 80% odds of remaining married after the benchmark period, while women who had 7 or more partners before marrying had odds of keeping a family together down in the 20% range. This fits in nicely with your observation of women marrying later in life, and with more 'experience'. I firmly believe the correlation found in the study above and the socioeconomic phenomena of women being able to marry later in life, has resulted in a trend that basically makes a life-long marriage nearly impossible to attain. This seems to be especially true in major urban areas, where the anonymity and access make it easier for the woman to gain such experience and make her postpone marriage and family as unnecessary to her survival. As to your point about 'accidental' pregnancies - there is a great scientific area of research, evolutionary biology and psychology, that has found some very eye-opening explanations for many things that seem to baffle us males. )
gene
xdream2000@hotmail.com
I am in my late 50's and have seen quite a few relationships of friends (and some of my own) come and go, and I have not - one - word - to add to Ryan's assessment of this. Except to reinforce, if you are in a relationship with some gal, YOU DAMN WELL BETTER BE CERTAIN YOU CAN TRUST YOUR LIFE to her family planning reliability, because if she decides it's time, she has the rest of your life, or at least large portions of what remains of it, in her hands. If her choice isn't necessarily your choice, you are well and truely screwed 'cause someone is coming to visit, permanently, in nine months.
You are playing with very hot fire indeed if your partner is not someone you are very sure you would not mind having children with. Because that is a very real possibility.
H
years before you were born, an element of the "powers that be" decided it would be a swell idea to get rid of all our "smokestack industries" and become a "service economy"...
the "higher education" industry (and student loan racket) was all on board with that.
i didn't think about it much, back then, because i was able to get myself a good job with the DOD. (and i had an "education" besides...)
do american kids today have any skills with their hands, other than using tiny keyboards, or "joy sticks"?
young girls today are sexually active, years before they are emotionally mature enough to be mothers. (who allowed that to happen?) (personally, i blame the "Great Society", tv, and "COSMO" magazine)
"marriage" was a "church" thing before the "state" became involved.
(that was before the "Mainstream" denominations had openly gay bishops. that was before the Church was overrun with phoebophile priests. it's just as well that "church" is almost irrelevant today)
the situation we're in now, is a result of things which were "decided" generations ago. the "leadership" seems to be on-board with it.
the "leadership" will need to be changed somehow, if things are to be improved.
Very good points. I think you shuld also consider when discussing men delaying marriage one key point: Most men today are still getting the cow and the milk for free.
First, the Aid to Single Mothers Act needs to be repealed. It subsidizes bastards and so we get more of them. Note: bastards is true both in the original sense and in the thug-father that contributed sperm.
Second, roll back feminism. Those single mothers need to be shamed. Currently they are lionized instead by feminists. Women are the gatekeepers, which is why the shame was directed at them prior to feminism gaining credibility.
Third, the current way of divorce must be changed. Right now, the woman has the divorce power, and it shows, with 3/4 of divorces coming from women. What's amazing is that men are getting married at all, not that they are getting married less. Prove cause, or take a severe hit in asset division. Get rid of alimony altogether, and start from 50/50 custody with no child support as a baseline instead of mother gets all.
Right now, a large minority of guys in their 20's-30's are declining to get married. Why should they? Marriage is a worse gamble than the roulette table.
I was born and raised in NJ and currently live deep in mormon land and the marriage culture here is so insane compared to what I'm used to. People here get engaged after dating a few months (sometimes less) and then get hitched. Mormon marriages last "for time and all eternity," so all these folks are in it for the long haul. It's all very foreign to me but it seems like we (mormons) got a system that works dang near perfectly at creating stable families.
@8:57, Values are the thing for sure. Many girls I went to school with have already had a kid, ended that relationship, found a new guy and started again. I'm really not that old.
@ Gene, I would have to read the study. If you have a link that would be interesting for sure. My initial thought is that we are talking about two very different groups in a lot of ways, with one end having some pretty solid values and the other maybe not so much.I would wager one is more religious, conservative and probably rural and the other is ambivalent and urban.
@H, I agree entirely.
@ Irishdutchuncle, Part of the issue with 'smokestack industries' is that we had a rather cushy time for 30 years or so after the rest of the developed world was blown to hell in WWII, partly by us. I don't see why, except maybe record keeping, the state is involved in marriage at all.
@6:16, Largely because people delay marriage due to economic realities things have changed in that area some. Wait till you are 18 and out of highschool working for GM ok (then), wait till you are 27 (now) and can finally afford a family, prolly not going to happen.
@Tweell, You sound jaded and I am not quite sure where you are going. Should women not be allowed to get divorced? That sounds sort of islamic fundamentalist to me. As for asset division and custody you may have some points.
-TOR
the industries that were sent away, had an entry level which didn't require a degree. competent people could become skilled people, over the course of a working lifetime. (and have a modest family life, after "wage slavery" was beaten back.
"record keeping" was important. it reduces un-intended incest, by tracking fatherhood. (it made marrying your half-sister less likely)
the state also had a public health interest in stopping VD, and alerting couples about RH factor problems. (they required a blood test)
Face it, marriage is hard. There are ups and downs in every relationship. Still, you swore before family and God that you would stay married for life. Yes, divorces are necessary, but the oathbreaker certainly shouldn't profit by it! Right now, that's the situation that exists. The divorce courts are set up to transfer money from men to women, this happens 90% of the time. This encourages folks that aren't happy (and we can't be happy all the time, that's life) to cut and run instead of working things out. Are people different, that there are fewer marriages and more divorces? No, but the law - and the way the laws are implemented- have changed.
I am a widower, I had a good marriage. We had some tough times, but always held on and came through closer than before. Seeing society, I'm amazed that the next family generation has done as well as it has, and am fearful for my poor grandchildren.
Great post!
You said something to the effect, a marriage is as valuable as the two that are in it think it is.
I think it is as invaluable as any one of them thinks it is. It only takes one to file for divorce.
I'm not surprised by the Heritage foundations findings. It has long been a theory of mine that an early good marriage is a good foundation for a wealthy and good life. Primarily because the started to plan their future 10 and 20 years before most others. (there is nothing one needs to do to get ready for marriage; its better to get married then get ready for life together)
I have an uncle that married at 16 i don't think he even finished high school. He is now 50's retired, a millionaire or close to it. Still with the same wife.
Today it is considered cool to be a single parent people love to say my EX-wife (girl friend). Also child support laws make a single custodial parent more comfortable financially. She (usually it is she) can throw the bum out claim bankruptcy on all the bills keep the house and rake in half of the EX-bums income, by force of law. Since child support is not counted as income she will qualify for any state and federal program: free collage, welfare, medical,food stamps 600-800 per month, If she didn't get to keep the house or they were renting, she now qualifies for government section 8 housing-a nice house will cost her 100 per month-the Gov pays the rest.
Its no wonder single parents-and poverty stricken broken homes are on the rise; it just pays better to be pore.
I forgot to mention the pore also get a free house to own, with programs like HUD, they own the home and can sell it after something like 3 years, Who wouldn't want 60-80k in their pocket. Single and pore with kids is the new life plan.
Buck, I'm not too familiar with that. I would sure like a free house though.
-TOR
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