The recent 1911's suck video by James Yeager seems worth talking about. In case you missed it here is the video:
For the sake of intellectual honesty and to have a little Devils Advocate fun I am going to say things 1911 lovers will not like. Anyway here we go.
The reasons people buy 1911's often have a lot more to do with their history, lineage, machismo factor and fact that the mighty Jeff Cooper carried one than anything about the actual gun itself.
1911's are big, heavy, don't hold a lot of bullets, are not lefty/ambi friendly and have controls that are difficult for many people to use well.
If you look at the 1911 honestly they probably (which I say just because doing a comparison would be a hassle) get bested as a defensive/ service weapon by modern handguns like those made by Glock, Springfield (XD), S&W MP, etc all in any honest test.
To be completely blunt if the 1911 was designed today it would probably never be made and certainly would not become popular.
Sorry 1911 lovers, it really isn't anything personal and everything I said is true. You wouldn't be fuming right now if it wasn't. End Devils Advocate fun.
Moving forward I think 1911 reliability issues and failures can be attributed to a few distinct categories. I will discuss them in no particular order.
Age- A gun made in 1917 that still has all original parts might reasonably have some issues. I once went to the range with a buddy who brought an old family heirloom 1911. It was a neat old gun of WWI vintage. After about 50 rounds the barrel bushing broke and the slide flew off into the dirt with the recoil spring and plug going all over the place. We picked up the parts and he got a new bushing. Not a huge deal really, metal fatigues, springs weaken, etc over long periods of time. A lot of these real old guns probably need a little TLC and just need to be retired as safe queens.
Manufacturers- So many people have made 1911's and most of them sucked at it. I stick with popular manufacturers and common models for a very good reason, they are far more likely to work well than no name or the fly by night guys.
Any
[DIY- The plug and play factor of 1911 parts has also lead to a lot of people trying to be gunsmiths and slapping a bunch of random parts together with predictably poor results. If you or your buddy screw with a gun and it stops working the fault doesn't lie with the gun. Also if you buy a used 1911 the guy who owned it a decade ago may have tried this and left the gun messed up.]
Maintenance- 1911's and in particular custom/ target models which we will discuss later are more picky about maintenance than a lot of modern service type handguns like Glocks and XD's. As Larry Vickers said "[i]f ... you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock."
Tolerances and "Target models"- As noted in the video the old WWII era 1911's had significant tolerances, such that they would often rattle if shaken. However they also shoot reliably. There is a very direct relationship between tolerances, accuracy and weapon malfunctions. Tighter tolerances make for more accurate guns but they also mean that guns are more likely to malfunction.
Over the last 30 years or so a lot of 1911 manufacturers have tried to cash in on the "target" designation. They made the guns more accurate by tightening up the tolerances significantly which is easy with modern manufacturing techniques. This allowed them to make the gun significantly more accurate and add 30-60% to the price. However many of these guns are equally accurate and jamtastic. Even the really expensive "target" type guns can be "picky" or only "like" one brand of ammo or have "unexplained feeding issues". As Tam noted awhile back it is interesting that a $1,200 gun is "picky" or has "unexplained feeding issues" but a $200 gun that does the exact same things is a jamomatic piece of junk. My personal advice is to keep the "target" models for competition/ ranges and to carry a service gun with it's significantly higher reliability and amply capable accuracy.
Those 4 areas are where I think most 1911 issues come from. One could argue that they are really not that hard to mitigate. Simply using a modern 1911 made by a major manufacturer and doing reasonable maintenance on it will go a long way.
My general observation is that standard models from major manufacturers like Springfield and Colt function like the service pistol the 1911 was designed to be. In other words they are reasonably reliable and accurate enough to be a viable defensive weapon. I haven't found them unduely maintenance intensive but I take pretty good care of guns anyway.
For the sake of full disclosure I own a Springfield Mil Spec 1911. I have used it for concealed carry and home defense and would not hesitate to do so again. I do not have anything bad to say about it. However I am trying to sell it which shows where my money is really going. I don't really do anything with it these days and it is complicating my logistics. Also by selling it I can get another Glock 9mm.
As to the bottom line. In my opinion if you like 1911's and are able/ willing to mitigate their weak points I do not see why a 1911 can't serve you well. Just because they aren't the highest tech and most low maintenance/ reliable gun out there doesn't mean they aren't good enough.
Thoughts? This should be fun.
14 comments:
I just want to say that the Glock is a very good gun but its not the super gun everyone is making it out to be. I own several and I can tell you from experience that they have issues also. The first problem I encountered was broken trigger return springs 2, then later a recoil spring broke and finally two extractor springs weakened to the point they would not extract the cases. And the previously mentioned spring problems rendered the gun inoperable.
It is amazing how one person can have so many problems with a type of gun. I have many Glock and have carried them for many years without a problem. I also have many thousands of rounds through them without a problem. I can tell you that from EXPERIENCE as someone whose life depends on his equipment working right the first time and everytime.
Heretic ! - Offff With His Head! 8^)
Actually, I agree with quite a bit of what you said. The 1911 has a cult built around it, a lot of it from long time experience and FAITH it will not fail when needed.
The 1911 is a bit heavy, but that is because alloys and other weight saving materials weren't in vogue at that time - real steel in short. I have a Norinco made 1911 and it runs like a top - only thing I replaced were the grips, which had CHEESY plastic - that looked cheap as hell.
Accuracy like you said is 'service grade' - but the sights are original U.S. military spec., so that to be expected. The lighter modern HP ammo often shoots low, the sights regulated for standard 230 FMJ bullets. Some ammunition shoots very well indeed.
The 1911 is a good gun, but if it came to having only one .45, I'm keeping my Glock 21.
Poppycock.
I've carried, both professionally and for personal use, 1911s, M9 Berettas, Glock 9mms, and S&W .38s and .357s.
My go-to choice is STILL a 1911; currently a stainless SIG version, with all the features I want, and none of the ones I don't want.
Because it, like Colt 1911s and the like back to time out of mind, function reliably, aim honestly, and stop adequately.
And people who have a choice, and both a lot more time on their weapons and a lot more riding on the outcome than I (e.g. LAPD and Army SF, to name just two) have come to the same conclusion.
I couldn't care less what other weapon choices others make, nor do I lose any sleep wondering about my own selection.
The optimum choice is something you're familiar with, safe with, and life & death accurate with. Pick whatever you like, but I'm packing a 1911.
Best Regards,
-Aesop
The strengths I've heard touted with the 1911...
- Easily customizable. If you do know what you are doing, and you are willing to pony up for quality parts, you can do nice things to customize the 1911. Kind of like an AR of handguns.
- Nice SA trigger. And indeed I shot a guy's USPSA "race gun" and it had an awesome trigger. But a stock Glock trigger is 5 lbs. A stock Springfield Armory "MILSPEC" 1911 is 5-7 lbs. A S&W M&P comes in at 6.5 lbs. So really the 1911 in a stock "fighting" configuration is not much lighter.
- Shoots .45. Well, ok, but so do Glocks and M&Ps. But, if you're an army SF guy and can choose between 9 MM FMJ and .45 ACP FMJ, I can see why the option that shoots .45 ACP is more attractive. And if you're limited to .45 ACP, the difference between a 13+1 Glock 21 and a 8+1 1911 isn't nearly as dramatic as the difference between an 8+1 1911 and a 17+1 Glock 17.
- They're awesome. Ok, that is true. I can see a nice 1911 as something you have a lot more pride of ownership in than a Glock foy-tay or nine. I can see a nice customized 1911 as making a nice gift, heirloom, or momento. And I'd prefer to spend thousands of dollars on a gorgeous custom 1911 to show off for dressy occasions than I would spending that money on, say, a nice watch.
All of our serious handguns are M&Ps (I'd be pretty much equally happy with a glock, its six and one half dozen) so I know what side of the argument I'm on. I'd like a decent 1911 but just can't justify the resources on what is basically a range toy or safe queen. There's nothing wrong with them but I just feel there are more workmanlike options for my uses.
Imagine the 1911 never existed, and some company introduced it today. You walk into the gun shop and the guy behind the counter hands you one and says "We just got this! Completely new design, it's not like anything else on the market"
"How many rounds does it hold?"
"Seven."
Seriously? Why does it have a grip safety and a manual safety?"
"Lawyers?"
"Hmm. Hey, Whats this link thingy hanging from the bottom of the barrel?"
"Thats where the barrel cams down after disengaging from the locking lugs."
"Lugs? It doesn't just lock up against the rear of the ejection port like everyone else?"
"No, they machined these grooves into the barrel and they mate up with grooves machined into the top inside of the slide."
"No way. Thats a lot of expensive machining that could have just been avoided. How's this thing shoot?"
"Well...the basic, bare bones models seem to all need some gunsmithing before theyre reliable but..."
"Wait...outta the box you need to take it to a gunsmith? Who's gonna buy that?"
"Well, a lot of guys say that once you put some work into it, they shoot real nice."
"For seven rounds. After dumping several hundred dollars into it. Out of the box. Whats the punchline on the price of this thing?"
"The bare bones models...."
"The ones you have to dump several hundred dollars into out of the box?"
"Yeah..theyre about the price of a Glock."
"And the higher end versions that actually, you know, WORK with most ammo right out of the box?"
About twice the price of a Glock."
"Are you smoking crack? Who is the market for this?"
"Well, I hear the military might be testing it out."
"Huh. Good luck with that. It looks like you need to keep the hammer cocked and the safety on all the time if youw ant to be combat ready..seems like a nice avenue for crud to get into the internals. And seven shots before I have to reload?"
"Yeah, I know. We only got in a few of these things. We put them in the case with SIGs and Glocks but its such an inefficient design I don't know if anyone is gonna buy 'em compared to those guns."
"Well, there's a market for everything."
"I suppose."
Interestingly enough, had nothing but trouble with my Glock 9 jamming, so sold it and got a Kimber Ultra Carry. I've been a happy camper ever since. To each their own, I guess.
"After about 50 rounds the barrel bushing broke and the slide flew off into the dirt with the recoil spring and plug going all over the place."
Dude. That would *never* happen with a Heizer .45 ;-)
Snoop-Diggity-DANG-Dawg
Snoop, A lot of malfunctions could happen in 25 reloads of that thing.
Commander your story is so on the money if the 1911 was suddenly the Colt model 2011. No one would buy it.
If I am not mistaken the SF choose the SIG not the old Colts 1911s. As for LA it is LA SWAT who is know for carrying the Kimber, not the beat officer, where Glock is the pistol of choice.
In 25 years I have only seen two officers carry a Kimber. Oh just FYI my first simi-auto pistol was a Colt series 70 SS government model. Great shooting pistol after it had been customized to feed HP rounds. Then came along the Sig
P220. Now I carry a Glock 22.
There is such a change as modernization! After all we would still be flying bi-planes in combat following the 1911 model of thinking.
Sorry sould say thing not change!
There is such a thing as modernization! After all we would still be flying bi-planes in combat following the 1911 model of thinking.
As a left-handed 1911 shooter, the claim that a 1911 is not lefty friendly is news to me. Funny that, I thought I would have noticed something like that during these last five years of shooting IPSC matches with one..?
This post sounds like yet another case of "people on the Internet keep repeating something, so therefore it must be true".
Tony
Tony, I would say common sense. The controls are designed for a righty and short of buying a different gun there isn't much to do except run it in an unusual fashion operating the safety with your thumb and other controls with your finger. This is easier on a universal service pistol (Glock, XD, S&W MP, etc) because of the lack of a safety to disengage. Also several guns allow you to switch safeties or whatnot from side to side or are entirely ambi.
Guess lefty's who have been shooting awhile have gotten used to it and everything is relative.
1911 owners are the Apple users of the gun world.
Having a bias for any weapon says more about the owner than the weapon. Most modern handguns have a lineage tracing back to the 1911, and no, it is anything but perfect. It will still kill. It is still a tool. There is a romanticized part to them but fanboys are just that...fanboys. It is very difficult to rationalize how $2400+ is necessary for an 8-shot .45 handgun. The marginal improvements over much less expensive handguns are laughable.
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