Project 870 Paralysis

Alexander Wolfe and Tam's shotguns are coming along nicely. My project is stalled. A week ago I would have said it was pending funds. However upon reflection I just haven't been quite sure where exactly it was going.

At this point instead of turning my shotgun into what I want the idea of simply purchasing a slightly more purpose built gun has come up. For the cost of buying an extension plus what I could probably sell my gun for one with a factory extension could be purchased. Once I $25 in a couple doo dads plus pay for shipping everything this option would probably SAVE me a few bucks. Given the randomness of used gun availability this option may or may not pan out. I'll give it a couple weeks to see what happens.

For lights I'm going to go with the surefire forend. Probably the most expensive way to skin that cat but I think its the best.

Anyway that is the status of Project 870.

Basic Guns Part 3: Shotguns

So far we have talked some basics of the series and in Part 2 picked up a good used .38/ .357 revolver. Now we are looking to get a shotgun as our second gun. There is certainly some debate between different folks about which gun should come second (or first for that matter).

Here is my thinking with a shotgun. The reason I would lean towards a shotgun is twofold. They are affordable and versatile. Shotguns cost less than rifles, especially modern magazine fed type rifles. A pump shotgun in hand is a lot more useful than an envelope with $300 saving towards some rifle. Also shotguns are versatile and when you do not have a lot of guns that is important. So there is my thinking for putting it #2, moving on.

To recap the goal here is to get a basic gun that fits a tight budget but is still a good solid weapon to bet your life on. The distinction between this and the cheapest guns out there is significant.

I strongly recommend purchasing a pump shotgun. They hold several (5-8) shells are affordable, rugged and fairly modular.  With the same gun you can defend the home, hunt little birds, various pot sized stuff and big game then do all manner of recreational shooting. They might not be perfect for any of these tasks (except the birds) but can do them all decently. Shotguns are sort of like any other jack of all trades in that regard.

There are two pump shotguns I recommend; the Remington 870 Express and Mossberg 500. I've compared them recently and both are good guns. For our purposes here the Mossberg tending to be $50-75 cheaper than the Remington would be an advantage.

In Southern Arizona today you can regularly find a good used Mossberg 500 for about $300. Used guns tend to be expensive here since most of them are probably bought by straw buyers and shipped to Mexican cartels so a bit less is probably reasonable in other places. Remington 870's can be found at the same type of prices but either they are in a bit rougher condition or you would have to wait awhile to find a deal.

For barrel length you want 18.5-20 inches for defense and whatnot. If you hunted you would already have a long barreled shotgun. Follow the local used gun stuff places and eventually you can find a long barrel (or potentially a whole nother gun) at a good price. A shotgun with short and long barrels can do a whole lot of things. If I had to have 1 barrel it would be a 21" barrel that took chokes but that's a rare or custom job. Between an 18.5-20" or a 28" hunting barrel it would be a short barrel for sure. 

I recommend purchasing a 12 gauge with a 3" chamber. That way you can shoot almost every 12 gauge round out there. There are 3.5 in shells but aren't many in circulation and the guns that shoot them are a lot less common. Twenty gauge is an option but the shells are a bit less common. They recoil less which is an advantage for some. Honestly being a healthy averageish sized man with some weight behind me and muscle to pad my shoulder joint this isn't a concern. It is my opinion that this is a training issue and there are many small people who shoot 12 gauge shotguns. Personally I would suggest folks in that situation buy a youth sized gun, fit it with a serious recoil pad and shoot low recoil shells out of a 12 gauge instead of getting a 20. However a 20 is still a fine option.

There are other cheaper models of shotguns out there. I have not used and can not possibly discuss all of them. While I will not say they are all worthless junk I certainly will not recommend them. The only exception is the Maverick 88 which is the Mossberg budget brand. They are almost identical to the Mossberg, the difference is fit, finish and furniture, and as far as I know parts are compatible. For goodness sake you can get a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 for a very good price.

It is worth touching on other configurations of shotguns. There are no well reputed consistently reliable semi automatic shotguns in our price range so that's not worth discussing. Single and double barrel shotguns are worth discussing. Bottom line in the do a lot of things including defense role they are not so good. For hunting and survival they are fine. In particular they offer a real value and can take cartridge adapters which is  pretty handy. I'll own one in the next year but for defense they fall woefully short. Do you really want 1 or 2 shots instead of several? The answer is hell no. Specifically to double barrels. Typically a double barrel worth owning can be sold for enough to get a decent pump gun which is probably a good idea unless it is a family heirloom. That leaves us with low end (but still functional) double barrel's and single barrels. My thoughts are twofold. If you ALREADY OWN one of these guns then it might be worth keeping. It can be your shotgun for awhile and down the road get a vastly superior pump gun and keep the older gun as a backup. If you do not own one then save another hundred bucks or so and get a good pump gun. You will not be disappointed.

For a little bit more money. This came up in the last post. If a person wanted to spend a bit more money I would recommend an older Remington 870 Wingmaster. They are blued which is a better finish than the Express and have a better fit and finish. The Wingmaster is the gun which made the Remington 870's reputation. If you are patient and toss in a couple more twenties it is a very nice gun.

Beyond just the gun. My basic shotgun setup would be:
Remington 870/ Mossberg 500
Buttstock shotshell carrier
Sling
Something to hold more ammo. I use an old SAW pouch.
750 rounds of ammunition:
250 rounds of buckshot. Folks like different sizes, I favor #4 buck but 00 buck is fine too. Honestly it doesn't matter. If it says 'buck' it is good to go.
100 slugs
400 rounds of mixed game loads 5, 6 and 7/8 shot.

Well those are my thoughts on that. Hope it gives you something to think about. As always input is welcome.

Solar Cooking, Remington 870 vs Mossberg 500 and Other Stuff

Getting used to cooking on the Sun Oven is definitely a priority of mine. The weather here is very cooperative and not a lot was going on earlier today so I gave it another go. Cooked up some pinto beans with the usual spices and a bit of bacon. Used canned beans and normal bacon but you could easily do the same thing with canned dried pinto beans and canned bacon. Got the Sun Oven set up and it started heating up like crazy. In a couple minutes it was over 200 and in 20 minutes or so it was over 300. In 2 hours I figured the beans were probably done. They turned out really good.

The sun oven cooks sort of like a combination of a normal oven and a crock pot. The time is a bit closer to an oven because the temp is higher bit it retains moisture like a crock pot. The combination is pretty awesome actually. Getting it positioned so the sun is hitting as much of the inside as possible and slightly ahead of the sun (so it's going to be in the sun for awhile) takes a little bit of practice. Checking it every 30 minutes or so and adjusting about every other time seems to do the trick. I have heard of folks setting up an oven aimed to catch the mid day- afternoon heat then leaving for work to come home to a hot dinner. That seems like a pretty cool thing to be able to do. I am going to work on doing that  over the coming weeks. Cooking for free and building skills is pretty cool.

As we have been asking shotgun related questions and specifically talking Project 870 the other logical option the Mossberg 500 series has come up. Folks have mentioned them and it's time to discuss the Mossberg as well as some compare and contrast between the two. (Note I'm not going to talk the Mossberg 590 separately. They are really more of a nicer M500 variant than a new gun IMO. A fine gun but if we talked every variant of both guns this would be a 10k word post.)

Bottom line up front: Both are good guns so get whichever you prefer.

Remington 870 Positives:
-Probably the most common pump shotgun in circulation. Basically the same gun has been made since the 1950's. 
-Pretty much the standard shotgun for police and firearms professionals. This might be a marketing/ sales success thing, I don't know. In any case when the vast majority of serious users choose one option it is  worth paying attention to.
-Very adaptable with all manner of parts options including those by duty grade type makers.
-Excellent fit and smooth action.

Remington 870 Downsides:
Controls in less than ideal locations.
On the basic Express Model some issues can come up with the finish. (I will talk 870 variants another time)

Mossberg 500 Positves:
-Excellent controls with the safety and pump release (probablyy not the right technical term) in the right locations.
-Excellent value. Typically a Mossberg 500 will be $50-75 cheaper than a comparably set up Remington 870.

Mossberg 500 Downsides:
-Rougher fitting of parts.
-Limited availability of duty grade type accessories. Lots of folks make junk that can be bolted onto the Mossberg 500. Good stuff is harder to get than for an 870.

Conclusion: It is worth mentioning I did not discuss reliability or durability intentionally. That is because both of these guns are about as reliable and bomb proof as a gun can get. The damn things just last forever and don't break. They both have positives and negatives so folks have to think about what matters the most to them. Right now we only own the 870 series but that is more about parts/ accessories commonality than anything else. If a good deal on a Mossberg 500 came up I would snap it up. Hopefully this gives you some insight into how I look at these two shotguns. At the end of the day I believe either gun will serve you well.

Project 870 and Various Shotgun Stuff

 The start. A basic plane Jane Remington 870 Express. It came with the long barrel. Got the gun for a solid deal in a Pawn Shop. It's mechanically excellent but has some finish issues. The 18.5 inch barrel was purchased later to make it into a more viable defensive weapon. A shotgun with long and short barrels is really versatile. The downside is spare barrels start about $120ish. Remember that if you consider getting a shotgun with the wrong barrel for your goals. The end result is a lot of versatility but the cost is pretty high. Folks are probably better off just getting the right barrel length for their purposes.

 My camera is not good enough to catch it but the finish has some rust damage (though thankfully no pitting). I cleaned it up but the damn thing just seems to attract rust. I'm not sure exactly what my plan there is. Probably going to clean it up well and either get it refinished (which I do not like because it costs money) or just rattle can the thing. Input is welcome here.

 The long barrel also needs some love. I get these cleaned up then leave them well oiled but they still get nasty. It will get whatever the gun gets.

 In our previous talk on shotguns the issue of carrying ammo came up. The thinking of keeping ammo physically on the gun is that at 3am if you grab the gun it has a reload or two on there. As most folks would be nekid or in their PJ's the options for ammo are on the gun or secreted in some body cavity. You might not have the presence of mind or time to put on body armor or whatever. If you have the gun you have ammo.

An easy and cheap way to do this is a buttstock shotshell holder. Pictured are two of them. The upper one is a pretty heavy duty model made by Tactical Tailor. The lower one is a neoprene one I got as a gift. Both work fine. Some folks use sidesaddle's that hold rounds on the receiver. I do not like the big plastic ones for a lot of reasons. The new method some folks are using of putting velcro on the gun and using those HSGI shot shell panels has a lot of potential. I will probably give it a try down the road.

There are many ways to carry shotgun shells. In addition to what you have on the gun one might want more ammo. If you keep a shotgun as a trunk gun or use it as a go weapon this is important. I do not like bandoleers but they are a decent option I guess. I HATE the sling bandoleers. Who wants 10 pounds of shotgun shells flailing around all over the place attached to your gun?

My method of carrying shotgun shells is an old M249 SAW drum pouch. I sewed some buttons on to keep it shut. In there are about 40 rounds of 2 3/4's #4 buck. I like #4 as a good compromise between projective count and size. We could debate what shotgun ammo to use for defensive purposes; however if it ends in 'buck you are good to go. Also in there are 5 slugs in there. I kept them in the box so they are easy to find if needed.

If I get into those HSGI panels then a lot of options open up for storing them on body armor in pouches and such. 

As to where this project is going.......

I am going to convert this shotgun into an optimized home defense type gun. It will get an extended tube to hold a couple more shots. To do that I will need to deal with those stupid dimples in the tube. Also a sling will be attached. Going to figure out a way to make the gun more durable in terms of finish. It might be a good way to practice painting guns. 

A light would be nice but it's going to be awhile.  Any options I consider duty grade and worthwhile are pretty expensive.

So that's my old trusty shotgun and what is in store for it.

 

Project 870 Questions

I'm going to be getting into the project of turning my 870 into a good all around HD or trunk gun. Will talk more about this later but right now I have some questions to help me gather info.

Slings- Do you have a sling on an 870 and if so what type? Is drilling a hold in the stock to put the swivel easy to mess up? What sort of front end attachment did you use?

Extended Tubes- Do you have a (non original factory) extended tube? What type (make and + how many rounds) and are they a hassle to install? My initial thought is to get a factory made Remington one. Is there any advantage to that?

Thanks,
Ryan

Since Everybody Else is Talking Shotguns I will also

Unfortunately I could not find a cheesy obviously photo shopped picture of Joe Biden with a shotgun. So you get assassin Joe. In an case Joe thinks shotguns are better than assault rifles. He also likes washing his Fire Bird in front of the White House.

Population Gun control issues aside I am disinclined to take tactical advice from old Joe for a variety of reasons. In any case since Mountain Guerilla and American Mercenary have talked about them I might as well chime in. The best way I can think to do this is to talk myths about shotguns and then get into pluses and negatives.

Myths:
Shotguns do not need to be aimed. The general guideline is that buckshot spreads at about an inch per yard of travel. So at realistic home defense type ranges you are looking at a fist to open hand sized pattern. It cuts you a bit of slack over a single round but you can still definitely miss.

Shot penetrates walls less than other rounds so it is better for home defense. This has been demonstrated false at a variety of places including Box of Truth. Bird Shot does penetrate a bit less however it is designed to kill little birds and thus falls short in terms of deer/ man sized animals.

Shotguns are easy to use. This is confusing for a couple reasons. We lack standardization of what constitutes being capable of using a weapon (example: load, cycle, unload, score X in under Y time on El Presidente (or whatever), reduce stoppage, field strip and clean). Without that standardization we cannot say with validity that it is easier to learn to use a shotgun than a rifle. When the issue is dug into folks far too often have the impression that you can can load a shotgun, pump it and pull the trigger you are good to go. Sadly this is just not the case.

More to the point shotguns in an anti personnel role are not ideal and require a lot of manipulation. Most common shotguns must be manipulated before every shot and are reloaded 1 round at a time. This is especially problematic because they hold 5-8 shots. The more a shooter must manipulate a weapon the more chances they have to mess up and make the darn thing not work. In particular for shotguns short choking is an issue.

Now that the myths are set aside we can talk about the shotguns advantages.

Positive

Cheap. You can get new Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's for somewhere in the mid- low $300 range. Used guns can be purchased for less depending on their condition as well as how desperate the seller and buyer are. At that price range a solidly decent pump shotgun is something any functional adult can easily purchase with a little bit of planning. For a quality gun that will last you a lifetime this is a bargain.

Legal pretty much everywhere. If you can own guns you can have a shotgun. To the best of my knowledge you can have a pump shotgun anywhere in America. They are also looked at much more favorably abroad if that is a concern for you.

Versatile. Shotguns can harvest all manner of game, defend your home and be used for a variety of recreational pursuits. A Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with a long choked barrel and a short riot barrel can do a lot of things.

Super Common. If a place sells ammo they have 12 gauge shells and probably 20 gauge also. For the common guns (Rem 870/ Moss 500) there is a ton of aftermarket support in terms of different parts.

To be fair shotguns also have some downsides.

Negative

 Round count. More shots are better and shotguns fall short here. Between 5 and 9 rounds in most common configurations.

High recoil. Shotguns recoil more than any standard defensive type rifle. More recoil means a longer time between shots.

Slow Reloads. One round at a time in a rather cumbersome fashion. This makes the low round count all the more problematic because you need to be constantly reloading to keep from running empty.

Limited envelope of performance. Shotguns are very lethal up close but if you get past 40 yards (and that is generous) for buck and 100ish for slugs in a standard configuration they aren't much good. Yes rifled barrels with scopes are available that push this envelope but those only exist because of states that only allow shotguns for hunting. If you want this configuration just buy a rifle.

Mediocrity. As we talked above it is true that shotguns can do a lot of things. However like any 'jack of all trades' they are pretty mediocre at all of them.

Bulky/ Heavy ammo. Shotgun shells are big and heavy which means you either carry less of them, less of something else or pack a heavier load.

It is true that more purpose built semi automatic shotguns like the Benelli's and in particular the mag fed Siaga 12 have leveled some of the historic weaknesses of pump shotguns. These are problematic because the high price point cancels out one of the biggest advantages of the shotgun.  Even beyond cost these shotguns are are in my opinion still a distant second to a rifle. Like we discussed some time ago I cannot think of a 2 legged predator situation where I would reach into a safe/ closet that held an AR/ AK and a shotgun and pick the shotgun over the rifle.

Anyway those are my .02 cents on that. Guess we can file this under the biannual rehashing of topics. Comments may be fun.

3 Guns For ....

Some folks have talked about a 3 gun scenario and due to boredom I feel like chiming in.

My thoughts on a basic battery (rifle, shotgun, pistol, .22) are on the record being an AR, Remington 870, Glock 9mm and Ruger 10/22. I talked about my families survival guns awhile back. Those are my Glock 19 and AR, Ruger 10/22 and Remington 870 and Wifey's .38 and if we can fit it in a 30'06. I have thought about this one for awhile and 3 guns is a lot less than ideal. While it is worth noting that the 3 gun scenarios folks have talked about are for an individual so I will go that route. For a family I would be pretty unhappy with anything but a basic battery. A basic battery would let a viable defensive long gun be at home and with the person going out with a pistol somewhere in the mix so it has some options.

My first two guns in almost any conceivable scenario are an AR, pretty happy with Project AR but any good functional rifle works and a Glock 19. The third gun is the rub. I have a hard time going generic here so it has to be somewhat scenario specific.

If I really cared about legally hunting (within this contrived scenario) the rifle would need to be something that is legal to hunt with. This is a great case for a semi auto .308 like a PTR-91 or an FN-FAL.

For an economic collapse or long term survivalist scenario I would have the 3rd gun be a Remington 870. This gives me the ability to take a wide variety of game and to use one of the most common types of ammunition out there. Since a .22 conversion bolt will let me shoot .22LR out of the AR (almost cheating but since it is just a $200 bolt and magazine that can fit in a mag pouch it isn't too bad IMO) I have a lot of options. In general for anything except a very military context this is the way I would go.

If I was in some sort of a Red Dawn scenario the third gun would be a .30 caliber scoped 'precision' rifle. The .22 conversion kit and AR could keep me fed if I was scavenging. The AR is good for just about everything with the Glock 9 as a backup. In a military context the only other gun (aside from multiples stashed away) that would buy me something is a rifle that could be used from a really long distance.

Anyway those are my thoughts on that. If somehow you were stuck with just 3 guns what would they be?

Dave Canterbury on the Remington 870. Not that I needed to be sold on it but still interesting. He talks single shot shotguns a lot for 'the woods' but unfortunately this mythical woods where there are lots of game and no people is just not so. Certainly there are areas with few people but almost none is a stretch. With very few exceptions (off the top of my head rural Alaska, a good chunk of Wyoming and the Dakota's outside of the few cities) the US just has too many people for them, and the resulting security issues not to be a consideration. If you can possibly afford it a pump shotgun is a better all around choice than a single barrel. Anyway a Remington 870 with a long barrel and a short riot barrel is a heck of a combo.

Friday Night Ramblings and Tab Clearing

I always knew that liberal dudes were weaker and generally less masculine but now there is scientific proof.

Apparantly CNBN did a hit piece of the venerable Remington 870. Hat tip to The Firearms Blog for the find. Maybe they could have been even more unamerican by bashing apple pie and cold beer.
Now for my take. I will even set aside the fact that the so called experts who testify about how pretty much every firearm is unsafe FOR MONEY and are trying to sell some new safety thing they invented.

The thing is that shotgun safeties, to the best of my knowledge are not so much safeties as trigger stoppers. To the best of my knowledge there isn't a shotgun out there that has a safety which blocks the sort of accidental impact based discharge that happened to the unfortunate fellow mentioned in the story. Sort of like many open bolt machine guns if you give them a good whack they will probably go off.

There is a simple and time tested way to handle this mechanical weakness. KEEP THE CHAMBER EMPTY UNLESS YOU ARE ACTIVELY USING THE GUN! For a shotgun this means that when you are done using it take the round out of the cylinder and stick it back into the tube or buttstock carrier.
I own a Remington 870 Express. With both short and long barrels it is a really versatile weapon equally capable of defending ones home or all manner of hunting and sporting. I have trusted it with my life in the past as a primary home defense weapon and would not hesitate to do so again in the future. As to my thoughts on reliability and usefullness the Remington 870 I won't sell the one I have and at some point will get another one.

I was at the store the other day picking up a couple things on my way home from work. The folks in front of me bought some stuff using WIC. Nothing really new about that. Overseas food costs are pretty high so they calculate eligibility differently and a lot more folks get it. I bought my few items and walked out to the parking lot. The folks who bought the stuff with WIC in front of me got into a car that was maybe a year old. Nothing crazy, I think it was a Ford Focus or something like that. I got into my 10 year old SUV with some minor cosmetic damage and drove home. Honestly it sort of made me angry. Why should I be subsidizing them? If they don't make very much money maybe they should be doing things like not buying new cars so they can afford food for their kids. I got to thinking. Given the state of our nation I don't really look down on folks who figure out how to work the system a bit in their favor. A few years back I did look down on them for being moochers. These days I sort of look at it that if you can get a little bit back it isn't a bad thing.
Ironically this year we qualify for welfare Earned Income Credit. A nuance of combat deployments is that since our pay is not taxed. Thus as far as my taxes are concerned it does not count. Since I deployed in February and was gone for a year our taxable income was pretty tiny for last year. Thus we get welfare Earned Income Credit. I wouldn't have thought of it but a pretty sharp contractor (ironically also a contrarian investor and survivalist) said I should look into it. This is something I had some real internal conflict about. It is pretty crazy that we qualify because my income fell into a different column on the stupid little piece of paper that is the W2. I make a decent living and we aren't in any sort of need. However me deciding to be a good guy and turning away free money is not going to fix the national deficit. We are putting the money into our house fund. I kind of look at it as a partial refund of all that money I put into SS and medicare
The man who committed 10 felonies in 9 hours was pretty impressive. Some folks are just bad and if this sort of thing happens when everything is normal toss in a power outage or a hurricane or a riot and well, it ain't pretty.

Well it is just about a done deal that Mitt Romney is going to be the Republican presidential candidate. I am almost entirely ambivalent about this. Got to purchase some more mags between now and November.
Heineken is pretty good and Jimmy Fallon probably has the best late night TV show these days.

That is all.

Survivalblog Article: A Practical Utilitarian's Take on Firearms and Calibers

Worth looking at and thinking about.

I respectfully disagree on the overall assessment of M16/M4/AR-15 platform. They do need to be cleaned now and again but nothing crazy. They don't need to be spotless, just have the inside free of junk (chunks of carbon usually being the culprit) and some lube in there. If you are unwilling to do that then buy an AK. As to durability. I haven't seen the Buttstock/ buffer tube of an AR series rifle break during the course of military operations.  Like any precise mechanical object they can be broken; I confident it would be easy to destroy any of the old WWII bolt action warhorses, a Remington 870, AK, Glock or whatever in 60 seconds flat by slamming it repeatedly into a rock or a curb. (The exception to this is the old M2 .50 cal because it is too heavy to swing well and has really thick metal components, I would have to take off the barrel and mess up the threads or take pliers to the trigger mechanism which would kind of be cheating).

In my opinion the M16/M4/AR-15 platforms ergonomics and commonality/ availability of parts/ accessories/ ammunition as well as the unparraleled modularity outweigh it's modest negatives.

Of Safeties and Fingers

I appreciate Gabe Suarez and his company Suarez International. Like every organization they have the weapons they advocate and are out to make a buck. Hey capitalism is cool so that is all good. Awhile back (not as I am writing this but as you are reading it) they did a lot of talking about safeties and the finger on the trigger.

Gabe Suarez made a great point that the M1911 and the AR-15 have done a lot to influence modern training when it comes to weapons safeties. I think that these two weapons were for so long the weapons our military carried is significant. No matter how much folks don't want to admit it most weapons, training and techniques stuff  trickles from the military to law enforcement to civilians.

If a weapon has a super fast (AR, M1911, M1A, most DA auto's, Mossberg 500, etc) and easily accessible safety then use it. If in the case of say the AK or the Remington 870 the safety is not so accessible then don't worry about it. With the AK I would just take the safety off when I thought I might likely fire and with the 870 I would keep the chamber empty unless I might likely fire the gun. While this might be a slight generalization modern firearms aren't going to go off while you carry them unless you pull the damn trigger. Most have mechanisms so they won't fire even if they take a sharp impact unless the trigger is pulled.

Physically accessible safeties IMO have a lot more to do with people's psychological comfort than actual mechanical functionality. A good friend and experienced shooter who is my buddy is half scared of his Glock 19. He has shot more guns than most folks I know but is just used to semi auto's with a physically accessible safety.

Personally in terms of handguns I grew up on double action revolvers. They don't have a 'safety' but that big heavy trigger pull makes sure you don't fire it on accident. In any case it is psychological. The trigger makes the gun fire. My first handgun was a Glock .40. Again if you don't want to shoot the thing you don't squeeze the trigger with your nose picker. Really not complicated. I guess it is something you are comfortable with or not.

Finger on the trigger is to me a more complicated issue. It is also a great example to show that life is not black or white but full of grey. By far off the trigger is the way you should train and get muscle memory. However I think there are some situations where one might put their finger on the trigger and not immediately shoot. For example I know a guy who is a cop. He pulled a guy over for a half dozen infractions (the vehicle had issues and he had a suspended license and tickets) and as soon as he went towards the truck the guy got out and grabbed a machete from the bed. Needless to say the cop pulled out his gun. The dude was about 18 feet away and just standing there with the machete. My buddy had his finger on the trigger and as he said it he had about 7 pounds of pressure drawn back on that trigger. He started talking to the guy (he was in a bad spot needing to get to work but having a suspended license, a truck that has issues, tickets, etc) and eventually got him calmed down.

Personally at the risk of generalizing I see it being situations where there is an identified threat and you may have to shoot. I would not put my finger on the trigger unless there was a definite target. The reason I would not squeeze the trigger is that the threat had not forced me to shoot. YMMV.

What If?

CarTeachO asked the question "What if you could only have 5 guns?". I was going to answer it as my daily post but then he went and did a real nice post on it, so there went my nice stolen idea.

My first 3 were easy:
Defensive pistol; concealable- Glock 19
Rifle; military pattern, magazine fed- AK47- Could go either way on this one with an AR as the other option. Like both but right now I lean AK.
Shotgun- Remington 870

The next one was pretty fast also:
.22 Rifle- Ruger 10/22

The last one. Well I got pretty stuck on this. A .22 pistol would be nice but with a .22 rifle isn't really necessary. Also in theory I could have a converison kit for the Glock (and by that theory one for the AK, if they exist, and eliminate the 10/22) but to me that would be gaming the scenario. A tiny pistol (Keltech P3AT, Ruger LPC, Seecamp, etc) would be nice for really NPE carry. A scoped rifle for hunting and such would be nice too (one of the advantages of the AK is that it is legal to hunt and quite capable of harvesting deer sized game at reasonable ranges, a real benefit of a semi auto .308 would be that it could hunt at distance also.) I guess it is a toss up and I would likely go with a scoped bolt action rifle such as a Remington 700.

What are your 5?

An Interesting Discussion on Shotguns

Is going on at Surviving in Argentina AKA FerFal's blog. My thoughts, rehashed from previous posts and maybe slightly evolved are as follows. The shotgun has some real benefits which relate just loosely to the weapon itself.

A servicable defensive rifle such as an AK, AR or some sort of .308 can be a real trial on a modest budget. For some folks it would take a very long time to save up for or just not be affordable until their situation changes. Defensive shotguns in the form of Mossberg 500's and Remington 870's are cheap. You can get them gently used and perfectly servicable for under $200 in used gun racks and pawn shops until you run out of cash or closet space. Of course like anything you can spend as much as you want. Somebody out there makes a $3,000 high tech custom defensive shotgun (interestingly unless it's a semi auto I would go dollars to doughnuts it's an 870 with lots of bells and whistles). However an 18-20" barreled pump shotgun will do 90% of what it will do at 10% of the cost. Bison's 90/10 rule definitely applies here. My advise is not to church it up. Get a pump shotgun, a sling and something to hold extra shells and practice.

Also there are a lot of bird/ deer/ skeet guns out there which can be readily put into defensive service with an appropriate length barrel and some buckshot. $10 bucks in buckshot and $5 in slugs turns a dove gun into a house gun. Versatility is a strongpoint here. If you live in an oppressive area then shotguns have another plus. They are not specifically targeted by much in the way of anti gun legislation. They are umbiquitious and within their performance envelope an effective weapon.

If you can afford a good semi auto rifle then you should get one. It might be the way to go for a home defense long gun. However if your budget or inclination lean towards a shotgun that is fine too. Understand your chosen weapons strengths and weaknesses and train with it. It is generally more about the person behind the gun than the gun itself.

When Was The Last Time You Tried To Justify A Toy For Preparedness?

I think sometimes we can sometimes let this get the better of us. We can always find a way to justify, if just to yourself, that toy we really want under the guise of a legitimate preparedness need. I remember a guy who had multiple motorcycles "for SHTF transportation". In reality he just liked motorcycles. Maybe for some other guy it is a 2k rifle with a 2k optic or a $500 fishing rod. Probably the biggest single area this happens is firearms. Heck probably 10% of the "survivalists" out there are just gun nuts with a case of MRE's anyway. Most of us are guys and we like guns. For me I can't pin down any single incident. However there is one thing I have been holding off on because I like my toys.

I like guns and have a collection that some people would consider large. It has some depth and also good breadth. Some guns fall more into the collection while others are core defensive weapons.  If I was making a ruthless preparedness move I would greatly streamline my collection. Aside from an heirloom or two I would sell off a bunch of stuff and have just core weapons. Instead of a meandering collection of handguns I would own a pair of stainless .357 magnums,  a .22 and a few Glock 9mm's. For rifles I would have AR's, AK's and at some point a scoped .308. For shotguns I would have just Remington 870's. Toss in a Ruger 10/22 and I would be done. I would have a collection of equitable size but lean and mean.

While I am passively planning (willing to sell but not very actively seeking a buyer) a sale or maybe two in general my plan is to hold what I have. Over time I will improve the ratio of core to collection not by getting rid of the collection but by getting more core. I probably try sometimes to justify the collection of toys. Though it might be convenient to have a weapon with a corresponding store of ammo in almost every common caliber (no .308 yet) more likely it is a  poor allocation of my limited resources.

When Was The Last Time You Tried To Justify A Toy For Preparedness?

Question of the Day

Does your group/ family/militia whatever you wannna call it have standard firearms? If so what are they?

First Gun and the Pistol and Rifle Idea.

FerFal wrote a post on first guns. To be honest I sort of hate this kind of hypothetical stuff but somehow keep coming back to it. Everybody should get at least a good centerfire pistol, a pump shotgun, a centerfire rifle and some sort of .22. I suggest a Glock, a Remington 870, an AR and a Ruger 10/22. Having bought them I am fully aware these are not cheap guns. Matter of factly I believe almost all people (its tough if you are truly disabled and on a small pension, etc) would be well advised to get quality modern firearms like the ones I named above. Scrimping, saving and working extra hours to get good guns sucks (I once worked full time over Christmas Break to get an AR) but you will not regret it in the long run. Guns aren't the place to scrimp and try to save a few bucks.  Commander Zero wrote a great post on this awhile back.

To not get too focused on debating this gun vs that gun really the possible combination are almost endless and provided you stick to common caliber (.38/.357mag, 9mm, .45acp for pistols and .223, 7.62x39, 30-30, .308, 30-06 for rifles of course 20 and 12 gauge for shotguns) firearms in common model/manufacturers (S&W, Ruger, H&K, Glock, Sig, Colt, Browning, Winchester, Mossberg, Remington, Marlin, AR, Mini-14, AK, FN-FAL, HK-91, M1A, etc all) you will probably do fine.

You need a centerfire pistol for carry and generally being discretely armed. Shotguns are probably the king of home defense and generally a great utilitarian gun to have (we will talk more about them later). Rifles are useful for hunting, plinking, and really the only decent option to shoot just about anything past about 100 meters. I think everyone should also have a .22 (I would suggest it be a rifle) because they are so darn useful and dirt cheap to shoot. These 4 guns will not deal with every possible situation in hunting, plinking and potential defense. The rifle you want if things to truly to hell is almost invariably a magazine fed semi automatic and not the one you would want to hunt Moose with and it might be convenient to get a subcompact carry pistol for EDC. I suggest these 4 basic guns because they will be good for most situations in defense, plinking and sport and are the foundation of any good home firearms battery.

However what would be best for people to get while they are on their way to this basic 4 is part of the question at hand.

I used to say a shotgun but FerFal's wisdom changed my mind. Some folks say a rifle but I think they are more wrong than the shotgun crowd. The thinking behind a pistol is that it is the only weapon you can have with you all the time without being arrested or causing a scene. Also you can answer the door or investigate that strange sound outside armed without giving Granny Smith your neighbor a heat attack. A shotgun is probably better strictly for home defense and a rifle might be better for a genuine TEOTWAWKI but both fail to take into account far more realistic and probable situations.


Shotguns for home defense also came up in the post which inspired this one. I am not saying that a pump shotgun is a talisman. No matter what any add says or infers no gun is going to turn you into a Grizzled Master Sergeant from CAG, sorry. I honestly believe the best all around gun for home defense is a short barreled  pump shotgun. Mossberg and Remington are the best options since Winchester kicked the bucket. Some have noted that shotguns hold a relatively small amount of ammunition @5-9 shells and used that for a reason either pistols or rifles are better for home defense. I would mention that the average gunfight is a couple rounds at spitting distance but well we plan for the worst not the best or average. Shotguns are better for home defense than pistols for many reasons. First without getting really far into the weeds on ballistics and round selection I don't think anyone has ever seriously questioned the man stopping power of 12 (or for that matter 20) gauge shotguns loaded with buckshot. Someone who takes a load of buckshot to the torso is probably going to be out of action very quickly or at lest as quickly as any other weapon we are discussing.

The other fact which I think mitigates the relatively low capacity of shotguns is that most people shoot them far better than pistols. No matter what anyone says you have to aim shotguns to hit anything. The reason I say people shoot them better is that the combination of being on your shoulder and a good cheek to stock makes shooting much more intuitive and easy. Take a bunch of folks to the range and have them shoot at a variety of targets at defensive ranges with a pistol and a shotgun, bet almost all of them will do better with a shotgun.

This has turned into a really long  post and I am just getting to the actual new unique thought. The just get a pistol and a rifle idea (or getting them first in priority) has popped up here and there from time to time. To be honest I can only see two situations where it makes sense. The first is if you want/ need a rifle and space is really limited (living on a boat, etc). The second is if you had a rifle already, bought a pistol and are waiting till you have the cash for a shotgun. Lastly maybe for whatever reason you just really don't want to have a shotgun, can't see why you wouldn't want a dozen of them but different strokes for different folks.

The reason most people don't just decide they need some guns and go to the store to pick up a Glock, a Remington 870, an AR, and a Ruger 10/22 is that they cannot afford to do so. Guns, particularly modern quality guns are expensive. Really the only reason this comes up at all is that it takes lots of folks some time to save and scrimp together enough cash to get a nice basic firearms battery.

The reason I believe a rifle as a second gun (after a pistol) is a bad course of action is not so much about the individual attributes of shotguns vs rifles but is all about economics. You can buy good used Mossberg or (to a slightly lesser degree) Remington pump shotguns for less than $175 all day long until you run out of cash or get bored. These days you can't touch an AK for much less than $450ish and once you get 20 mags at about $9  a piece the cost goes up considerably. An AR which wasn't made in somebodies basement is going to cost at least $700 or more depending on how name centric you are. Mags cost about $12 for Mil Spec and a bit more for MagPul. I don't even want to talk about how much good semi auto .308's cost, the M1A I want and will some day get is going to cost about a pound of flesh.

For a shotgun all the accessories you need are a sling, a buttstock shotshell carrier. Plus of course ammo. You can get a good shotgun with its needed accessories for less than you will spend on rifle mags alone! Shotguns are far cheaper than quality defensive rifles and thus you can have a long gun and a pistol far sooner by going the shotgun route. This way you will be as well armed as possible while saving up enough coin to get a rifle.

Here is where someone is going to mention surplus bolt guns. I covered my opinions above but lets reiterate as it applies to the long gun for defense. Yes some older style and WWI-II surplus rifles can be purchased for much less than modern quality rifles such AK's and AR's or various .308's but they are almost universally a horrible choice for defense particularly inside the home or in close quarters. They are big and heavy/ cumbersome, slow to reload and a potentially deadly choice given the potential for multiple adversaries in close quarters. For someone married to the idea of a close quarters defensive rifle without the desire to get something semi automatic (and probably mag fed) I would suggest a lever action 30-30 as they are relatively cheap, compact, fast to reload and generally the best of the undesirable options in this range.

In conclusion I think it is smart to buy a defensive pistol, pump shotgun, centerfire rifle and a .22. I believe quality modern guns are worth the money and that most people should make the choices necessary to get them. For those who have no guns buying a defensive pistol first and a pump shotgun second is IMO the best course of action with a centerfire rifle and a .22 to follow at a later date when funds allow.

Thoughts?

Big Spare Parts Purchase, Running It By You

I have been thinking about this for awhile. Sort of want to run it by you folks, also I just can't think of anything else to write. So here we go.

Between selling the Glock .40 and some saving I have a pretty decent wad of cash saved up. I can throw a hundred bucks at this or fifty at that pretty easy but big amounts of cash are pretty rare and I want to do this right.

I have $1,100 for this purchase.

First and foremost I am going to get enough 9mm Glock magazines to get me to the comfortable happy place. I will get 10 normal full capacity and three of the big 33rders because well they could be useful and might go up significantly in value. This will cost $300 or a shade more. I put this first for a couple reasons. First of all the stuff I am going to list evil high capacity assault weapons magazines have the most chance of a radical (and maybe permenant) spike in price. Second I may never need any spare parts but I know that as a Glock shooter I will find a use for mags. That takes us to $800ish.

Now it is time to get cracking on spare parts. I have put this off for way too long and want to be able to take a big jump toward keeping my guns running for the unforeseeable future. Having a couple dollar part sideline a several hundred dollar weapon for which I have taken the time and expense to stash a good amount of ammo would be a real waste.

First and foremost I need to secure AR parts. I am quite comfortable with this platform and have plenty of bullets for it. This kit seems pretty good to me and with a spare buttstock and pistol grip and a few other goodies and a broken shell extractor. Figure $300 will be plenty for this platform. Leaves us with $500ish.

Now to the Glock 9mm. Commander Zero wrote about this topic and well he knows guns and Glocks. Figure I can probably get a good stash of Glock parts for $200 or so. Leaves $300 to work with.

Now for the Remington 870. A field repair kit is always a good start and I will throw a few spare springs (w/ followers) in to boot. Can't see myself breaking anything on this gun and certainly not anything aside the stuff I mentioned. [When I have a couple of these I will get at least one spare stock but the thing is heavy wood and I've never come close to breaking a stock. ] Call that $100 to keep the math easy. So we are at $200ish now.

Things get a little bit muckier. First of all I would really need to see where I am at cash wise as my math was pretty approximate. Second of all my priorities become less clear. I am somewhat inclined to put some remaining funds I have toward Mossberg 500 parts. Don't plan to get another Mossberg but they are not bad guns and it was the first gun I ever owned so it does have a soft spot. Assuming my math is halfway accurate I would be able to get it pretty taken care of and then probably have some left over to pick up a due dad or a widget or three.

Then again a friend noted that I should get some mag springs for the Glock. I am definitely planning to do that but it may be another purchase for another day. I have a reasonable stash of mags and don't keep more than 3-4 loaded at any point in time so it is not a hugely pressing concern. However certainly mag springs and followers are something I should just throw a C note at for peace of mind. Come to think of it doing that for both the Glock 9mm and AR would probably be wise.

After making (more or less) this purchase I will still have a long way to go in spare parts. Possibly the Mossberg, the 1911 and my surplus rifles will need some loving too but with the bulk of my spare parts (at least for current armory levels) needs met it will be easy enough to finish up over time in a more gradual way.

Thoughts? Did I miss anything? Parts I should get but didn't list, mistaken priorities?

Glock or Gold?

I saw this post over at Suburban Prepper. Thought about it while we went and grabbed a bite to eat then rented a couple of movies. My initial thought is to get a half dozen or so of each.

The real thing is that our money is limited while desires are infinite and buying one thing often means that at least right away you can not buy another thing. So which thing to buy? Are you better taking that wad of $100 bills and buying some gold or getting a glock?

Well that sort of depends. Do you want a gold coin or a Glock or a tv or a set of snow tires or a weekend in Phoenix Arizona? I threw in the last three just because it shows there are many options for your hard earned money and that weighing unlike items is difficult. A Glock 9mm will be great for defending yourself but will not keep your car from spinning out in the snow this winter. It is nice to watch TV but seeing Uncle Joe in Phoenix would be fun and they have that place with the great margaritas.

I guess the simple question is if you want a Glock or a piece of Gold. Obviously a Glock is good for defending yourself or target shooting or barter in case the end of the world happens [though to high in value for day to day transactions a quality handgun would be great to trade for a large animal or passage the heck out of somewhere or some sort of other big thing]. The same dollar denomination in gold [we are talking about what is best for your hard earned dollars] will not defend you but then again that isn't what we are making a purchase for. One advantage I can think of with gold is that presently there are no regulations about who you can buy or sell small quantities [I think over certain weights there is some regulation but us normal folks won't be troubled by that.] of gold or to whom they can sell it to. If you are from Idaho and want to sell an ounce of gold to a felon from California while in a restaurant in Nevada nobody gives a darn at least to the best of my knowledge. Also if you sell or swap gold to someone they will not be able to use that gold to cause physical harm to you. Lets say the sketchy bikers from that compound out in the hills show up to the Ye Old Barter Faire with a couple of solar panels you can totally use. A piece of gold in their hands will get you the goods you want but they can not use it to do physical harm to you. The same is obviously not true with a handgun. [Trading a pistol to kind old Farmer Joe who has something you need would probably be just fine but suffice to say care should be given in who you would want to arm.]

That gold is a very compact store of value also has some advantages. [Yes it also has disadvantages but that is why God was kind enough to invent silver and .22 ammo:] The stuff currently costs a bit more than a grand an once depending on what size or type of coins you want. Lets say it looks like something really bad is going to happen so you take a bunch of cash out of the bank or whatever and turn it into gold. All of a sudden you need to leave home with little warning and not a lot of stuff, gold is perfect. With a tiny bit of creativity and or halfway decent sewing skills you could leave home with a backpack and a dozen ounces of gold discretely stored on your person or in your possessions. Plenty enough to get a place to stay for awhile or even heaven forbid have a leg up in making a fresh start. It would be a lot harder to toss a couple dozen Glocks into your backpack.

I personally buy guns for my own use and to have the option of loaning or giving to others in a time of need. If the need arose I could easily part with a few guns. Suppose I could buy arms as 'an investment' or for barter, maybe someday I will. More likely I will just buy guns I like and will use. I have a decent collection of guns now and will probably double it over the course of my lifetime. Offloading some off caliber or non standard platform weapons is something I could do if need be.

I buy gold because it is a non denominated store of wealth which is widely accepted and has been for a very long time. Within my means I will continue to buy gold over the long term.

Ode To The Ka-Bar

I like knives. Not quite sure how many non kitchen knives we have lying around but me thinks it probably counts a lot. One knife I think everyone could really benefit from owning is the good old fashioned Ka-Bar. I got mine for around $40 from cheaper than dirt but that was awhile ago and they now cost $54 or so.

Anyway there are a lot of general purpose/ fighting knives around but few if any beat the Ka-Bar. First of all they are just awesomely classic which is cool. Second of all they are a big old piece of steel with a leather handle. Third of all short of killing someone with a can of budweiser or dropping a model T on their face in terms of hand to hand killing it doesn't get much more American than stabbing some asshat in the face with a gone Ka-Bar.

There are all sorts of super cool fancy urban combat special operations commando fighting knives these days. One could play a game where they made up a tough sounding name for a knife then threw in a bio of some special operations guy and sold it for $200-600. Mine will be called "The Boar" and it was invented by an Raul Enrique Gonzalez an elite Paraguaan Navy Seal, it can be had for the very reasonable price of $382.49. That is a low price for a deadly fighting instrument invented by the most elite Special Operations SEAL forces of South America. If you buy this knife suddenly you will be strong, brave and capable of doing amazing things but only for the power of good.

Anyway I am not going to say that all of these new knives are crap. I know a guy who always had the newest coolest knife. He spent money on knives that made what I spent on guns seem reasonable. Some of those knives where pretty awesome and I bet would take a real beating.

However lets look at it this way. Would you rather have "The Boar" for $382.49 or a pair of Ka-Bar's, a used Remington pump shotgun and 50 rounds of buckshot? I personally would stash another boom clack and have a knife to have on me and one to throw in the trunk of my car just in case.

While a Ka-Bar will not get you mall ninja chic points it will certainly do what it is made to do and cut stuff or heaven forbid cut and stab people. I firmly believe in my heart of hearts that if you can hold up your end of the proverbial bargain a Ka-Bar will never let you down.

You should get one of these and maybe a spare. I am thinking about a couple of spares........ Prolly think about this shortly after the ATM card for the new bank account (where there is a bank here into which I can put several hundred dollar bills) finally shows up and I order the bunch of AR/870/Glock 19 stuff I've been meaning to get. A bit more than a hundred bucks will get me two more of them which would probably be sufficient. Then again me thinks maybe another Ka-Bar and a Buck 119 Special would be a better way to go.

Thoughts?

Wish List Update

My wish list has been noted for the record.

I have done some thinking and need up update it some.

First of all the spare Glock 19 is off the list. Always good to take something off the list and put it into the closet. Marking something off the list is always a little victory. Though 4 more would be good;)

Second of all I think the S&W model 19 is going to get bumped. Not that I wouldn't like to find one at some point but it is getting significantly downgraded in priority. It is slipping into the arena where if I happen to have some spare cash, see one lying around and don't need anything else I would get it. This puts it with just about any nice old 1911, P-38, Luger, Winchester 30-30 or a broad variety of other guns.

A .357 magnum with a real durable finish would be useful while one with a blued finish would be another thing to clean 2x a year and maybe take to the range once. Honestly I need another blued revolver like a fish needs a bicycle (said that to a girl once, funny story for another time). I will probably pick up a new stainless .357. Wish I could find a mate to my Taurus model 66 6" in the stainless finish. Mine is the older (?) one with the half lug barrel. The thought crossed my mind for a second to get my blued Taurus done in electrolytes nicklel but it looks so perfect as is that I would rather purchase a new gun then mess with it. Honestly this revolver is probably the most ergonomically desirable pistol I have handled. I would probably take a pair of pliers to my pinky finger nail to find a stainless one.

Those are the two changes to the wish list.

Thoughts?