Birdshot For Self Defense?

An interesting video on the use of 12 gauge birdshot for self defense. This video makes a pretty compelling argument that birdshot is adequate for close quarters type self defense. A several inch deep hole the size of a fist is nothing to sneer at. If you are only worried about close distances and penetration is a real concern this might be something to think about.

We could probably call 00 buck the standard in terms of defensive shotgun loads it's 9x .33 caliber pellets is definitely not something to sneer at. Personally I like #4 Buck Shot it typically has 27x .24 caliber pellets. I like #4 buck for two reasons. First it has a lot of pellets that are IMO still amply sufficient. More pellets means more wound channels. The reason I like this is that it increases the chances a pellet or pellets will hit something very important (vital organ or essential bone) stopping the threat as quickly as possible. Sure 00B's shot is larger with more penetration but there are fewer chances a pellet will hit that artery or bone and stop somebody. Personally I think any sort of 2 3/4 inch BUCK SHOT is a fine choice for self defense. Slugs work too if that is your thing. Right now the bag of shotgun shells by my gun are 00 buck, not the preferred #4 buck, just because when I was digging for shotgun ammo that was the first sort of buckshot I found.

I can not in good conscience endorse loading defensive shotguns with bird shot. The reason is twofold. A lot of really smart people tend to agree bird shot does not penetrate enough to be a good choice for a defensive load. Second and more significantly my concern is that we are turning a 35-40 meter gun into maybe a 10 meter gun. That it's your home defense shotgun which theoretically will not leave home is a fine idea. However when you get into a fight things happen. Both the enemy and Murphy have a role in deciding how fights go. All of a sudden you could be behind a tree shooting at some meth head with an SKS behind a big rock 30 meters away with a shotgun loaded with birdshot. Granted one doesn't want to fight anybody carrying a rifle using a shotgun but that same gun loaded with buck (maybe with some slugs onboard) can fight at that distance.

Anyway those are my thoughts on that.

Crazy Days- Walther .380's, Benchmade Auto Knives, Shotgun Ammo and Trading

So I owned a Walther .380 for about a week. You might have guessed at that earlier. I had given up on finding the gun I was looking for and the classic small carry auto seemed like a good alternative. One came up and I snagged it. The .380 was a great gun. It was easy to carry and shot like a dream, certainly the most accurate gun of it's small thin size I have shot. Anyway the day after getting it a trade popped up out of nowhere for a slightly wider but otherwise similar sized gun that suited my logistical trail much better. The .380 was screwing up my logistics, had just became redundant and needed to go. Also I sort of spent money on it I probably shouldn't have (not like spending the rent, more like project AR money). Started floating it out there then ended up swapping the .380 off today.

In trade I got $200 cash, a Benchmade 5000 Auto Presidio with the black  partial serrated blade (like a used car with 500 miles it had a a few small scruffs/ scratches but otherwise like new), 100 rounds of 12 gauge buckshot, 100 12 gauge slugs, a Magpul CTR stock and 20 5.56 tracers. We also swapped my remaining .380 ammo for 35 rounds of 00B and 200 rounds of #7 shot.

The cash will let me pick up the rail I need to finally complete project AR. The knife is something I have wanted for a long time but have never been willing to pay for. Honestly I just haven't been able to justify it despite trying to do so and really wanting one. Nothing wrong with a Kershaw Blur or a Benchmade Griptillian. No real NEED to spend more on a knife than that which is why I didn't. Anyway a good deal popped up so I took it. Really it is what sealed the deal on this trade. As to shotgun ammo I was semi in the market for it, half because we can use more and half because it's the ammo that is currently available at prices that are reasonable for stocking up. The stock I didn't need, it might end up on my rifle but worst case a nice back up stock isn't a bad thing.

So anyway I spent a good chunk of the day figuring out the deal then after work went and made it happen. Between a cool new knife, a few bucks in my pocket and some more ammo I am pretty happy with the deal. Also the renewed simplicity of my logistical trail is nice.

What Did You Do To Prepare This Week?

I had a good unplanned power outage test. Fun stuff. Coming out of that I topped off our battery stash. That sort of reinvigorated my World Band Radio hobby.

Also Walmart had 12 gauge #6 shot so I grabbed 3x 25rd boxes of it. Recently re read One Second After. There was a brief discussion between a couple characters about ammunition availability awhile after the event (a couple months I think). What folks were running short on was .22lr and small game shotgun shells. The bigger stuff was generally being held onto for rather obvious reasons. Anyway that small game type ammo was being used the most made sense to me. For whatever reason that has sort of stuck in my head over time.

We are doing OK on .22lr. Sure when it's back to $17-20/500 I will buy another 10 bricks but the situation is not desperate situation. In terms of total guns out there to availability I think a significant minority of folks have 50-100 rounds of .22lr and the majority probably have under 1k. Purchasing at normal prices .22lr represents an almost perfect (aside from that it could be used to hurt somebody) trade stock. Allocating some for trade/ charity to friends and family is probably a good idea.

Now in terms of small game shotgun ammo I'm not doing so well. Would like to stash about 500 rds of #7/8 shot and 500 or #4-6 over time. Right now small game type shotgun ammo is pretty available at normal prices so I am working on it.

This article on Wants vs Needs via Modern Survival Online is worth reading and considering. We have all been guilty of getting stuff we WANT instead of stuff we NEED a time or two. I am no exception. Heck I should have read that article late last week.

Speaking of which there have been some interesting developments in our pistol battery. Sort of trying to do a thing or two so I'm going to wait till the dust settles before talking more. A person who pays attention to guns I have been looking for and recent questions I've asked could probably make some good guesses there. Interestingly my handgun buying/ trading in the last several months has been entirely focused on concealed carry sized pistols. Sure I would LIKE 5 Glock 17's put away just in case but getting the right pistol to carry around is probably more important. Anyway I've gotten way off track and this has turned into a sort of rambling discussion.

Coming up this week I am going to keep fiddling with the world band radio. Will do some more bug out food testing also. May talk about holsters as I stumbled into a batch of em. Who knows what else will happen.

What did you do to prepare this week?

What Did You Do To Prepare This Week?

Swapped a shotgun for one that better suits my needs. The new (to me) Remington 870 Police Magnum is looking pretty decent. I really like it with the wood. The finish is pretty worn though thankfully there is no rust (I #*$((# hate dealing with rusty guns). I will get it re parkerized when convenient.

Read Pastor Joe Fox's book The Survivalist Family.

I put together a bunch of meals for our bags. Got some more modifications to make here based on Pastor Joe's excellent book.

While it didn't help me I taught a land navigation class to some people. Calling it a group might be a little strong but people helping each other learn useful skills is a good thing. Also being able to talk candidly about our worries with flesh and blood people who have similar mindsets is nice. This was 'classroom' and we will follow up in 2-3 weeks with a practical field portion. Teaching people is fun.

This coming week I want to do a few things. Would like to really get our bags set up, if stuff is needed at a minimum I want to come up with a complete list of what needs to be purchased. It would be nice to get a sling on the 870 and just maybe pattern it for shot and zero the sights for slugs. May also do some other stuff I cannot think of now.

What did you do to prepare this week?

Project 870 V2 Police Magnum!!!

For awhile I have been on the fence about this project. Part of me knew that it might just make sense to get a purpose build defensive shotgun. Once I figured in the cost of a tube extension and such economically it would be about even. So I've been sort of watching for the right gun. Around here the trend in shotguns is to bolt on a bunch of stupid cheap accessories then believe your shotgun is now worth $700. Anyway I said something might happen on this project today and it did.

Enter Project 870 V2 Remington Police Magnum

Dog had to get in on the action. As you can see this gun has Ghost Ring sights and an M4 style adjustable stock. The sights are from Iron Sights Gun Works.

The stock and forend are Blackhawk SPEC Ops. The stock is adjustable in the M4 style I hate (except on M4's) but that's what it came with. I'm either going to swap the furniture for standard furniture (or the Hogue equivalent) or buy standard furniture and put this stuff away as a backup set.

The finish on this gun is not great. It was probably a police cruiser gun at some point. The guy wasn't entirely honest about that but it gave me a point to negotiate some cash off the price so that was OK. I was on the fence about going all Hoss USMC and painting it anyway so the finish doesn't really matter, just makes that decision easier. However again along the police cruiser gun theme it doesn't seem to have been fired much and the inner workings are very nice, dusty but nice.

Was able to get it out to the range for a little bit today.  The gun is noticeably heavier than a standard 870. These things are built like beasts, which is why I wanted one. It holds 6+1 which is nice. It shoots well though I might need to adjust the sights a little bit. The pistol grip gave a good angle to support the gun but put my hand in the wrong place for the controls. Overall the stock was OK I guess but it's just not for me. Got to handle an 870 with the Magpul furniture and that was really nice. It looks weird but the angles give you a lot of control and the cheek to stock is just right. Darn expensive though so it will be awhile, if ever, before I get one.

The needs for a tube extension and sights are covered as the gun already has them. Aside from replacing the furniture it needs a sling, a light and a way to hold ammo. A sling is easy, spare ammo is easy (velcro and cards), a light is simple but expensive (and I have some decision making to do there).

So that is where Project 870 stands today. The gun that was Project 870 (V1) will be sold to pay for this purchase. I borrowed money from another gun fund to make this happen so the proceeds of the planned sale will replace that cash.

 Now I'm going to see how this dirty girl cleans up.

Thursday Odds N Ends

Got a post on the Malay Emergency in the pipe but am too scatter brained to write it today. It's my Friday so that is good.

Saw this lovely piece on the Drudge today.

911 Dispatcher Tells Woman About To Be Sexually Assaulted There Are No Cops To Help Her Due To Budget Cuts

 Thoughts in no particular order. 

- I don't know where this gal lived but Josephine County is pretty rural. If a cop needs 30 minutes to get there all they can do is take a report and maybe clean up the mess. Rural people are pretty much on their own anyway.

-I would be interested in  having a conversation about what a Sheriff's role is with the Josephine County Sheriff. Personally as a Sheriff I would answer the important calls myself if nobody else was available.

 - Budget cuts at the state, county and city level are a reality. That means fewer cops in many places. I have issues with a few things some cops do but generally they are good people doing their best and are certainly a force for order in our society. You had better accept that you are becoming more and more on your own. Get ready for it.

  -AMERC wrote about the 5 principles of patrolling today. Good stuff. Sort of like Priorities of Work the 5 P's of Patrolling are solid guidelines to stay within.

  -Project 870 might be taking a significant jump both to the side and forward tomorrow. At the risk of counting my chickens before they are hatched I will keep the details to myself till it's done.

 Well I'm going to put some work into our bags. Have a good night,

Ryan   

 

What Did You Do To Prepare This Week?

Organized a bunch of our bug out food.

Ordered a DBAL IR laser. Unfortunately it is a couple/ few weeks back ordered.

Got cash to buy the rail it will go on, either they are out of stock or Troy's website is less than user friendly. Meant to call them today but it didn't happen.

Broke down and ordered a Swack Shack.

Got 100 rounds of 12 gauge #8 shot. Small game loads are something I'm not long enough in shotgun ammo so it is being addressed. Plan to get a case of #4 shot in the next few days.

Made a big grocery store trip to restock a lot of things that have been used up.

Been putting more consideration into eating well and exercising.

What did you do to prepare this week?

Firearmagedon and Garden Update

Today I had some idle time around mid day. Decided to go out to all the local gun shops kind of inventory/ price checking. Here is what I found

Gun availability- A wide variety of guns were readily available. All sorts of AR's plus other military pattern rifles. Of course lots of hunting/ 'precision' rifles, shotguns and .22's. Pistols were available though you might not be able to get a specific model. Part of that I think is just that a lot more variance is in the pistol market. [EX I wouldn't notice the lack of a 16" mid length BCM rifle when they had a half dozen various AR's on the wall. I would be far more likely to notice a Glock 19 not being there.] You could probably get something pretty comparable though. Lots of XD's and M&P's present. Glocks were sort of hit and miss.

One guy was definitely trying to get some pre panic prices (they may be consignment at which point he doesn't determine the price) on a few military pattern rifles but I've been seeing the same guns there for awhile so there do not seem to be any takers. However broadly speaking prices were OK. They are probably around 125% of normal or so.

Mags- Lots of AR mags. Prices for PMAG's, Lancers, etc were about $21ish. TAPCO AK mags from $15-20ish. Glock mags were semi available with prices around $30. That's not too bad since they were $26-27 retail in a local shop before this. Bunches of XD mags available. Didn't see ANY .Ruger 10/22 mags and only a few off brand AR .22 conversion mags. The shop that had the silly rifle mag prices had some silly prices for AK (unambiguous used steel @ $30) and M1A mags (unambiguous metal @ $50) . Hell I guess you can't fault a guy for being optimistic.

Ammo- Prices are generally coming down but availability is spotty. Saw .223 at a couple places. It seems to be running .60c a rd or so for brass cased range meat. .308 everywhere but it's running a buck to a buck and a quarter for brass cased range meat. No 9mm/ .40/ .45 ball to be found. The stuff is coming in a trickle then going out just as fast.

Full availability of shotgun ammo. Target loads, small game hunting, turkey and buck/ slug are all available. That in and of itself might be a reason to own a 12 gauge shotgun.

.22 ammo. Availability was limited at best. The shop that had the optimistic rifle and mag prices had a few inflation adjusted 325 round bricks of Federal Auto Match for $40. That price was probably optimistic guess somebody might need .22 ammo who will pay that. (In the last month and a half or so I've purchased 3 of them, 1 at $21 and 2 at $17.)

At other places I saw a few various 50-100 round boxes of .22lr. Some Winchester and some CCI. 

Well that's the firearmagedon update. In general things are getting better which is good. Unfortunately ammo is lagging behind. Hopefully that will get better in the coming weeks.

As to the garden. The strawberry plants did not die but they were definitely not going to bear fruit. They went into the trash today. The tomatoes are going well. Except a bird ate the two almost perfectly ripe tomatoes I was waiting to pluck from the vine and put into a meal. That filled me with more rage than was probably reasonable. Talked to some folks about it. Apparently you need nets to protect the maters from birds here. I'll do that tomorrow. The taters and beans seem to be doing just fine. The cherry tomatoes are good. The peppers just haven't done anything, not dead but haven't grown or anything. I'm kinda thinking they might have been in too small of pots. Stuck em in the larger ones the strawberries were in so maybe that will help. Well that's the garden update. Some good, some less good, lots of time outside and learning.

Anyway I hope you all have a good Saturday.

How is the firearm/ mag/ ammo situation in your area?

Project 870 Paralysis

Alexander Wolfe and Tam's shotguns are coming along nicely. My project is stalled. A week ago I would have said it was pending funds. However upon reflection I just haven't been quite sure where exactly it was going.

At this point instead of turning my shotgun into what I want the idea of simply purchasing a slightly more purpose built gun has come up. For the cost of buying an extension plus what I could probably sell my gun for one with a factory extension could be purchased. Once I $25 in a couple doo dads plus pay for shipping everything this option would probably SAVE me a few bucks. Given the randomness of used gun availability this option may or may not pan out. I'll give it a couple weeks to see what happens.

For lights I'm going to go with the surefire forend. Probably the most expensive way to skin that cat but I think its the best.

Anyway that is the status of Project 870.

Basic Guns 4.5: Cheaper Alternatives to Basic Guns

So I have been doing this Basic Guns series and some folks have mentioned other cheaper generic/ off brand alternatives. In the case that brought this up it was Part 3: Shotguns and somebody mentioned the H&R Pardner.  This suggestion isn't good or bad parse it just brings up a point worth discussing.

Personally I would rather have a used quality gun than a newer less quality one. I'd take a Maverick 88 with a couple scratches and dings than a new H&R Pardner or a used Smith and Wesson .38 over a new no name revolver that has been in production for a year. The reason for this is that guns age very well and this goes double for good guns. Being honest most guns are not really shot much anyway. They sit in a nightstand, closet or gun safe most of the time. The bottom line is that good guns tend to last for a really long time. Also it is worth revisiting my thoughts on common manufacturer/ model/ caliber firearms before we go further. Some folks think otherwise and that is of course their right.

The reason I think this way is that good guns rarely fail you but cheaper guns often do. I'm not saying all the time but cheaper guns are more likely to have systemic issues and a higher rate of lemons. Especially since we are talking small differences in money the $20-40 difference is worth exponentially increasing the risk you will have issues with a gun. I know it's the basic guns series but people with few guns on tight budgets can afford to replace and fix stuff the least. They need the darn things to work as there are not backups.

The decisions about which guns to choose for this series come from my personal experience and the  experiences of others I have been able to draw on. I truly believe they are good choices but that does not mean they are the only choices. Other people might be comfortable with different, potentially cheaper guns and that is fine.

Well those are my thoughts on cheaper guns for this series. This weekend we will be talking rifles which should be fun.

Thoughts?

RE: Basic Guns Part 3: Shotguns

My recent post on shotguns in the basic guns series drew a comment worth replying to. It already got a pretty good response but I'll take a shot at it also. Here it is, I will reply after each piece in italics.
"Let's see...
* Heavy, bulky ammo
How much ammo do you plan on carrying? For a normal home defense or siting on the porch after a Hurricane type scenario I'd be quite comfortable with what's in/ on the gun and 40-50 rounds which is not excessively heavy. True 150-250 rounds of buckshot or slugs would weight a lot but if you're trying to do that it's likely not a problem that can be solved with a shotgun anyway.
* Short range
Short range in comparison to what? [This is a systemic issue of the comment. Nothing is defined or compared to another alternative.]  Figure buckshot is good to 30 meters or so which covers probably 90% of home defense type situations. Slugs out of a standard open cylinder barrel with a bead sight are good to about 100m (if the operator does his part) which probably covers 99.9% of civilian defensive situations.
* Ineffective against even the cheapest armor
So are all but a few oddball pistols but you don't see folks running away from 9mm, .357mag, .40 and .45. The comment to use slugs is valid. Then again rifle plates that stop everything up to 30'06 AP are common place and can be purchased for a few hundred dollars. So that thinking eliminates the advantage of .223, 7.62x39 and .308 also; you would really have to move to .338 Lapua or other anti materiel type rifle that will either blow through a plate or create so much energy it would do a person in through blunt force trauma. Honestly while Goblins wearing body armor is a valid worst case scenario for home defense the real odds of it happening are probably pretty low. If a round to the plate does not do somebody in (or you see vests) transition to 'hips and heads'. In plain English if you suspect folks might have vests shoot them in the hips and then in the face. Heck given the slim but reasonable likelihood that somebody has a vest these days starting with 'hips and heads' isn't a terrible idea.
* Crap sights
Honestly I have never really had an issue with the plain old single bead. Given the realistic ranges for employing a shotgun I find them sufficient. Rifle sights, ghost ring sights or a red dot are all better and valid options but they cost money.
* Crap accuracy
If a person cannot use a serviceable shotgun to accomplish realistic shotgun tasks the issue lie in the operator not the weapons system.
* Awkward, slow reloads
 In comparison to a modern magazine fed weapon that holds 20-30+ rounds reloads are slow and awkward. On the other hand if we are comparing it to a bolt or lever action rifle I would call it a wash.
So why would I want to buy a shotgun again?"

Further commentary:  The systemic problem with this comment is that it does not compare shotguns to another option by weak point or to propose another weapons system as an all around better option. Maybe I am being too hard on this but it has it's been pounded into my head that you bring up a problem AND A BETTER OPTION.

I am a pretty harsh critic of shotguns for home defense. This guy would take an AR/ AK/ Mini 14/ Whatever over a shotgun every day of the week and twice on Sunday. $1,500 Project AR with a $500 optic blows the old 870 out of the water in about every possible way. A Mercedes or Porche SUV blows my Asian SUV out of the water and $120 a bottle Scotch beats $18 a bottle stuff. The problem is that a comparison between them that does not consider economics is invalid. 

At the time of this writing AR's run $1,200 for low end guns. AK's are running almost a grand for low end ones.  A quality shotgun costs 1/4 to 1/3rd of either. Many people are priced out of modern defensive rifles these days but any semi functional adult can pull together $250-300ish to get a good pump shotgun. Also today they are still widely available both in stores and on the private market. Think I've beat the cost thing to death.

The other big benefit of a shotgun is versatility. A rifle can do some things better than a shotgun but there are many things a shotgun can do that a rifle fails completely at. As discussed before any sort of jack of all trades is not the master of any but in this scenario a gun that does a lot of things acceptably is very useful.

Instead of comparing a shotgun to rifles that cost 3-4x as much ones in the same range might be a more equitable comparison. We will get to rifles later but the playing field between bolt action deer rifles, lever guns and old milsurp Mosin Nagants and the shotgun is a whole lot more level.  A reasonable person could choose to go rifle first then shotgun down the road but it's still important to compare apples to apples.

Considering this is the Basic Guns series and we are talking about affordable but still reliable guns that will fill a lot of roles I consider the shotgun worthwhile. 

Thoughts?

Basic Guns Part 3: Shotguns

So far we have talked some basics of the series and in Part 2 picked up a good used .38/ .357 revolver. Now we are looking to get a shotgun as our second gun. There is certainly some debate between different folks about which gun should come second (or first for that matter).

Here is my thinking with a shotgun. The reason I would lean towards a shotgun is twofold. They are affordable and versatile. Shotguns cost less than rifles, especially modern magazine fed type rifles. A pump shotgun in hand is a lot more useful than an envelope with $300 saving towards some rifle. Also shotguns are versatile and when you do not have a lot of guns that is important. So there is my thinking for putting it #2, moving on.

To recap the goal here is to get a basic gun that fits a tight budget but is still a good solid weapon to bet your life on. The distinction between this and the cheapest guns out there is significant.

I strongly recommend purchasing a pump shotgun. They hold several (5-8) shells are affordable, rugged and fairly modular.  With the same gun you can defend the home, hunt little birds, various pot sized stuff and big game then do all manner of recreational shooting. They might not be perfect for any of these tasks (except the birds) but can do them all decently. Shotguns are sort of like any other jack of all trades in that regard.

There are two pump shotguns I recommend; the Remington 870 Express and Mossberg 500. I've compared them recently and both are good guns. For our purposes here the Mossberg tending to be $50-75 cheaper than the Remington would be an advantage.

In Southern Arizona today you can regularly find a good used Mossberg 500 for about $300. Used guns tend to be expensive here since most of them are probably bought by straw buyers and shipped to Mexican cartels so a bit less is probably reasonable in other places. Remington 870's can be found at the same type of prices but either they are in a bit rougher condition or you would have to wait awhile to find a deal.

For barrel length you want 18.5-20 inches for defense and whatnot. If you hunted you would already have a long barreled shotgun. Follow the local used gun stuff places and eventually you can find a long barrel (or potentially a whole nother gun) at a good price. A shotgun with short and long barrels can do a whole lot of things. If I had to have 1 barrel it would be a 21" barrel that took chokes but that's a rare or custom job. Between an 18.5-20" or a 28" hunting barrel it would be a short barrel for sure. 

I recommend purchasing a 12 gauge with a 3" chamber. That way you can shoot almost every 12 gauge round out there. There are 3.5 in shells but aren't many in circulation and the guns that shoot them are a lot less common. Twenty gauge is an option but the shells are a bit less common. They recoil less which is an advantage for some. Honestly being a healthy averageish sized man with some weight behind me and muscle to pad my shoulder joint this isn't a concern. It is my opinion that this is a training issue and there are many small people who shoot 12 gauge shotguns. Personally I would suggest folks in that situation buy a youth sized gun, fit it with a serious recoil pad and shoot low recoil shells out of a 12 gauge instead of getting a 20. However a 20 is still a fine option.

There are other cheaper models of shotguns out there. I have not used and can not possibly discuss all of them. While I will not say they are all worthless junk I certainly will not recommend them. The only exception is the Maverick 88 which is the Mossberg budget brand. They are almost identical to the Mossberg, the difference is fit, finish and furniture, and as far as I know parts are compatible. For goodness sake you can get a Mossberg 500 or Remington 870 for a very good price.

It is worth touching on other configurations of shotguns. There are no well reputed consistently reliable semi automatic shotguns in our price range so that's not worth discussing. Single and double barrel shotguns are worth discussing. Bottom line in the do a lot of things including defense role they are not so good. For hunting and survival they are fine. In particular they offer a real value and can take cartridge adapters which is  pretty handy. I'll own one in the next year but for defense they fall woefully short. Do you really want 1 or 2 shots instead of several? The answer is hell no. Specifically to double barrels. Typically a double barrel worth owning can be sold for enough to get a decent pump gun which is probably a good idea unless it is a family heirloom. That leaves us with low end (but still functional) double barrel's and single barrels. My thoughts are twofold. If you ALREADY OWN one of these guns then it might be worth keeping. It can be your shotgun for awhile and down the road get a vastly superior pump gun and keep the older gun as a backup. If you do not own one then save another hundred bucks or so and get a good pump gun. You will not be disappointed.

For a little bit more money. This came up in the last post. If a person wanted to spend a bit more money I would recommend an older Remington 870 Wingmaster. They are blued which is a better finish than the Express and have a better fit and finish. The Wingmaster is the gun which made the Remington 870's reputation. If you are patient and toss in a couple more twenties it is a very nice gun.

Beyond just the gun. My basic shotgun setup would be:
Remington 870/ Mossberg 500
Buttstock shotshell carrier
Sling
Something to hold more ammo. I use an old SAW pouch.
750 rounds of ammunition:
250 rounds of buckshot. Folks like different sizes, I favor #4 buck but 00 buck is fine too. Honestly it doesn't matter. If it says 'buck' it is good to go.
100 slugs
400 rounds of mixed game loads 5, 6 and 7/8 shot.

Well those are my thoughts on that. Hope it gives you something to think about. As always input is welcome.

Project 870: I Can Haz Sling

I was watching a Youtube video this morning and had a blind flash of the obvious, a single point sling. Duh! Generally I am a fan of 2 point adjustable slings or baring that 2 point slings. However in this case the 1 point has some benefits. Specifically that for many guns, including shotguns, they require no attachment hardware. The other benefit is that I already have one, somewhere. Started looking for it and ended up finding the stuff to make one from my old ghetto rigged 2 point sling. So I decided there was no need to tear apart the house to find the ready made one. A 1 point sling is really just a loop of nylon webbing, a buckle and something to attach it to the stock. In about 5 minutes I had it set up and Project 870 has a sling.

 

 

 

 

 The key to 1 point slings is that the loop which goes around your neck and across your chest under the arm has to be pretty tight. When you get go of the gun the attachment point will drop to the lowest place on that loop. If that loop is big and floppy your gun is going to be in the dirt. Mine is as tight as it can be and still slip on easy.

 As you can see I took an 8 inch piece of gutless 550 cord, looped it through the buckle and tied it together with a double overhand knot. That cord is just looped under itself around the gun's grip. Simple but pretty effective. Also you really cannot beat the price.

The sling had a loop on one end. I hooked the other end through that and held it in place with a generic metal sling thingie. Left about a foot of extra just in case. Better to have extra adjustment and not need it than need it and not have it.

One point slings aren't my favorite for patrol rifles because they are less comfortable for long term carry and when hands free or loosely holding the grip with 1 hand the gun swings around a lot. However for a shotgun that's going to be in my hands for very short periods of time those issues are minimal. Also the price of free is hard to beat.

Solar Cooking, Remington 870 vs Mossberg 500 and Other Stuff

Getting used to cooking on the Sun Oven is definitely a priority of mine. The weather here is very cooperative and not a lot was going on earlier today so I gave it another go. Cooked up some pinto beans with the usual spices and a bit of bacon. Used canned beans and normal bacon but you could easily do the same thing with canned dried pinto beans and canned bacon. Got the Sun Oven set up and it started heating up like crazy. In a couple minutes it was over 200 and in 20 minutes or so it was over 300. In 2 hours I figured the beans were probably done. They turned out really good.

The sun oven cooks sort of like a combination of a normal oven and a crock pot. The time is a bit closer to an oven because the temp is higher bit it retains moisture like a crock pot. The combination is pretty awesome actually. Getting it positioned so the sun is hitting as much of the inside as possible and slightly ahead of the sun (so it's going to be in the sun for awhile) takes a little bit of practice. Checking it every 30 minutes or so and adjusting about every other time seems to do the trick. I have heard of folks setting up an oven aimed to catch the mid day- afternoon heat then leaving for work to come home to a hot dinner. That seems like a pretty cool thing to be able to do. I am going to work on doing that  over the coming weeks. Cooking for free and building skills is pretty cool.

As we have been asking shotgun related questions and specifically talking Project 870 the other logical option the Mossberg 500 series has come up. Folks have mentioned them and it's time to discuss the Mossberg as well as some compare and contrast between the two. (Note I'm not going to talk the Mossberg 590 separately. They are really more of a nicer M500 variant than a new gun IMO. A fine gun but if we talked every variant of both guns this would be a 10k word post.)

Bottom line up front: Both are good guns so get whichever you prefer.

Remington 870 Positives:
-Probably the most common pump shotgun in circulation. Basically the same gun has been made since the 1950's. 
-Pretty much the standard shotgun for police and firearms professionals. This might be a marketing/ sales success thing, I don't know. In any case when the vast majority of serious users choose one option it is  worth paying attention to.
-Very adaptable with all manner of parts options including those by duty grade type makers.
-Excellent fit and smooth action.

Remington 870 Downsides:
Controls in less than ideal locations.
On the basic Express Model some issues can come up with the finish. (I will talk 870 variants another time)

Mossberg 500 Positves:
-Excellent controls with the safety and pump release (probablyy not the right technical term) in the right locations.
-Excellent value. Typically a Mossberg 500 will be $50-75 cheaper than a comparably set up Remington 870.

Mossberg 500 Downsides:
-Rougher fitting of parts.
-Limited availability of duty grade type accessories. Lots of folks make junk that can be bolted onto the Mossberg 500. Good stuff is harder to get than for an 870.

Conclusion: It is worth mentioning I did not discuss reliability or durability intentionally. That is because both of these guns are about as reliable and bomb proof as a gun can get. The damn things just last forever and don't break. They both have positives and negatives so folks have to think about what matters the most to them. Right now we only own the 870 series but that is more about parts/ accessories commonality than anything else. If a good deal on a Mossberg 500 came up I would snap it up. Hopefully this gives you some insight into how I look at these two shotguns. At the end of the day I believe either gun will serve you well.

New Years Resolutions- Finalized a bit late

I dropped some draft goals awhile back and was recently reminded of them. It is high time I solidify them.

Physical:

Maintain a consistent weight lifting program.

Run a half marathon (I changed to this because it's March and I haven't tracked mileage which was a big fat fail)



Continue working on barefoot running towards the goal of running on a  variety of terrain up to 5k barefoot

Transition to running fully in minimalist shoes

Ruck at least 1x a week

Eat reasonably with decent consistency so I don't gain and lose the same weight 2-3 times over the year.

Skills/ Training:

Attend a defensive handgun course.

Work on developing a variety of other skills as they come up by doing as much myself as possible.

Guns and Gun Junk:

Pick up a couple holsters and assorted other stuff to get squared away for what we have. (Specifically a nice Bravo or Raven concealment kydex holster for the Glock with TLR-1, a good OWB holster for the J frame, and an ankle holster.)

Purchase a DBAL and free float the barrel on project AR.  (The DBAL is almost funded I just need to do a bit more research then pull the trigger.)


Finally complete Project 870. At least the tube extension and sling. The light angle I've got to do some thinking on.

Get more spare parts. Beef up on core stuff (AR's and Glocks) and get some basic stuff (firing pin, extractor, ejector, springs, pins, etc) for other guns.

Finally get my (already sporterized) 1903 30'06 tapped and mount a scope on it.

If things work out and decent deals come along I would like to get a single shot 12 gauge and another .22 rifle. 

Subcategory Ammo: I am only doing this if prices get back to normalish. Would take my best whack at it and if I get half done be happy.
5k .22lr
1k 9mm
1k 12 gauge (mixed about 400 buck, 100 slug and 500 mixed small game loads)
2k .223


Food:

Build up to a 1 year supply of food for 4 people.

Can something

Continue with my garden this year.

Pursue fishing/ hunting as it fits with our environment and life. 

 Energy/ Other:

Get a better solar setup. A bigger panel with a power supply and a few small lights is the answer. Goal 0 makes what I am looking for. It will cost about $400. Probably 500 once I get the lights. This would have gotten purchased late in 2012 but the whole ban madness shifted my priorities elsewhere.

Get licensed to drive a motorcycle. Maybe purchase a used enduro/ adventure touring motorcycle.

Continue putting together and refining our systems. Firm up the bug out bags and the heavy (vehicle) bug out setup.

Re look and improve our cache situation.

Financial:

Continue being debt free and saving. Along these lines continue not doing stupid things. 

If we reach our food storage goal get back to putting away some silver and gold.

Long Shots:


Start on the AR Pistol.

Buy some land (this mostly depends on some other things).

As always input is welcome. It would be fairly useful now before these resolutions are solidified. 

Project 870 Questions

I'm going to be getting into the project of turning my 870 into a good all around HD or trunk gun. Will talk more about this later but right now I have some questions to help me gather info.

Slings- Do you have a sling on an 870 and if so what type? Is drilling a hold in the stock to put the swivel easy to mess up? What sort of front end attachment did you use?

Extended Tubes- Do you have a (non original factory) extended tube? What type (make and + how many rounds) and are they a hassle to install? My initial thought is to get a factory made Remington one. Is there any advantage to that?

Thanks,
Ryan

Readily Available Guns

An interesting video from the good folks at Moss Pawn and Gun on readily available guns in the current firearmagedon situation. My .02 are that Glock prices have gone up significantly. Used Gen III guns seem to be going for around 6 bills in Southern Arizona and they aren't being advertised long. Finding a 17 is easier than a 19 though. I think revolvers are worth thinking about if you cannot pay the current double stack semi auto (and especially Glock 9's for whatever reason) premiums as they have been essentially unaffected by this mess.

For whatever it is worth things seem to slowly be getting better as the freedom ban folks seem to be stalled out. Maybe it's just that the folks who wanted an AR/ AK and could pay loony tunes prices have already bought. AK's and AR's are available and slowly but surely prices might be trending slowly down. Unless you are desperate it might be wise to wait this out.

Anyway there is the video to give some advice to folks really trying to get set up today without paying stupid prices.

From Around The Web

Teotwawki Blog did an excellent Snub Nose Gear Roundup.

A journalist was not treated very nicely when he asked if Mayor Bloomberg was giving up his armed security. The classic elitist liberal position that chosen ones deserve the best protection the public purse will buy but us peasants can dial and die. Bet they aren't packing neutered 7 round mags either.

Assault Weapons ban does not have the votes to pass the senate. Next step is to protect our right to be full people unlike New Yorkers who are 7/30ths as important as chosen ones. After that we tell them to keep away from law abiding citizens right to buy and sell their private property with other law abiding citizens. Enforcing the gun laws we have would be a good start.

The lost art of cut shells.

Detroit edges closer to bankruptcy.

About every centerfire rifle in existence is just waiting to be redefined as a cop killer.

Since Everybody Else is Talking Shotguns I will also

Unfortunately I could not find a cheesy obviously photo shopped picture of Joe Biden with a shotgun. So you get assassin Joe. In an case Joe thinks shotguns are better than assault rifles. He also likes washing his Fire Bird in front of the White House.

Population Gun control issues aside I am disinclined to take tactical advice from old Joe for a variety of reasons. In any case since Mountain Guerilla and American Mercenary have talked about them I might as well chime in. The best way I can think to do this is to talk myths about shotguns and then get into pluses and negatives.

Myths:
Shotguns do not need to be aimed. The general guideline is that buckshot spreads at about an inch per yard of travel. So at realistic home defense type ranges you are looking at a fist to open hand sized pattern. It cuts you a bit of slack over a single round but you can still definitely miss.

Shot penetrates walls less than other rounds so it is better for home defense. This has been demonstrated false at a variety of places including Box of Truth. Bird Shot does penetrate a bit less however it is designed to kill little birds and thus falls short in terms of deer/ man sized animals.

Shotguns are easy to use. This is confusing for a couple reasons. We lack standardization of what constitutes being capable of using a weapon (example: load, cycle, unload, score X in under Y time on El Presidente (or whatever), reduce stoppage, field strip and clean). Without that standardization we cannot say with validity that it is easier to learn to use a shotgun than a rifle. When the issue is dug into folks far too often have the impression that you can can load a shotgun, pump it and pull the trigger you are good to go. Sadly this is just not the case.

More to the point shotguns in an anti personnel role are not ideal and require a lot of manipulation. Most common shotguns must be manipulated before every shot and are reloaded 1 round at a time. This is especially problematic because they hold 5-8 shots. The more a shooter must manipulate a weapon the more chances they have to mess up and make the darn thing not work. In particular for shotguns short choking is an issue.

Now that the myths are set aside we can talk about the shotguns advantages.

Positive

Cheap. You can get new Remington 870's and Mossberg 500's for somewhere in the mid- low $300 range. Used guns can be purchased for less depending on their condition as well as how desperate the seller and buyer are. At that price range a solidly decent pump shotgun is something any functional adult can easily purchase with a little bit of planning. For a quality gun that will last you a lifetime this is a bargain.

Legal pretty much everywhere. If you can own guns you can have a shotgun. To the best of my knowledge you can have a pump shotgun anywhere in America. They are also looked at much more favorably abroad if that is a concern for you.

Versatile. Shotguns can harvest all manner of game, defend your home and be used for a variety of recreational pursuits. A Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 with a long choked barrel and a short riot barrel can do a lot of things.

Super Common. If a place sells ammo they have 12 gauge shells and probably 20 gauge also. For the common guns (Rem 870/ Moss 500) there is a ton of aftermarket support in terms of different parts.

To be fair shotguns also have some downsides.

Negative

 Round count. More shots are better and shotguns fall short here. Between 5 and 9 rounds in most common configurations.

High recoil. Shotguns recoil more than any standard defensive type rifle. More recoil means a longer time between shots.

Slow Reloads. One round at a time in a rather cumbersome fashion. This makes the low round count all the more problematic because you need to be constantly reloading to keep from running empty.

Limited envelope of performance. Shotguns are very lethal up close but if you get past 40 yards (and that is generous) for buck and 100ish for slugs in a standard configuration they aren't much good. Yes rifled barrels with scopes are available that push this envelope but those only exist because of states that only allow shotguns for hunting. If you want this configuration just buy a rifle.

Mediocrity. As we talked above it is true that shotguns can do a lot of things. However like any 'jack of all trades' they are pretty mediocre at all of them.

Bulky/ Heavy ammo. Shotgun shells are big and heavy which means you either carry less of them, less of something else or pack a heavier load.

It is true that more purpose built semi automatic shotguns like the Benelli's and in particular the mag fed Siaga 12 have leveled some of the historic weaknesses of pump shotguns. These are problematic because the high price point cancels out one of the biggest advantages of the shotgun.  Even beyond cost these shotguns are are in my opinion still a distant second to a rifle. Like we discussed some time ago I cannot think of a 2 legged predator situation where I would reach into a safe/ closet that held an AR/ AK and a shotgun and pick the shotgun over the rifle.

Anyway those are my .02 cents on that. Guess we can file this under the biannual rehashing of topics. Comments may be fun.

Trimming Things Down- EAA Bounty Hunter SS 12 Gauge Sold

Continuing this trip's trend of gun sales that started with the 1911 I sold an EAA Baikal Bounty Hunter II coach gun today. The funds will either finish of Project Upgrade AR or go towards something else, probably a small pistol. Still looking to sell the Garand and a wheel gun but those will probably happen down the road.

I think Project Upgrade AR is already sufficiently funded. That means today's proceeds should be able go towards something else. Not sure what exactly, the amount would pay for a small pistol, but that is a matter for another gun show day.